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Are "psi-pets" living things?
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Posted on Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:03 am

### intrepidus6

Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 52

Proof that ants have emotion:
They work together as a group, but just like humans (whom I beleive we can all agree have emotion) they somtimes don't get along.
They serve the queen, and except her leadership.
they have a special place for the dead, and go searching if one of there own is lost.
They take care of there young, and move them if danger comes.
I'm sure we have more complex emotions than ants, but they do obviusly have emotions, this is especially evedent with there burial thing.
Just because we humans think we are the smartest things on Earth dosen't make us any better than other living things.
But lets all pretend for a moment that ants don't have emotion. You still can't justfy killing them for no reason, as many people do.
And ants do have a central nervous system. So that is proof that they feel pain.
And I know form keeping a pet scorpion, that bugs have emotion. That scorpion can be loving and gentle, but if you piss her off, she gets really angry. And I have seen her get really scared too, like when a stranger is around.

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Posted on Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:25 pm

### pyromaniac4382

Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 43

My stand on this is that to think of a constuct as alive would be somewhat weird ..say you could consider it alive that would mean you would have to program every little aspect of life into it . You know how a baby doesn't know anything but it is still capable of breathing and having intelligence...of some sort. This would be like teaching a baby how to live, so i dunno. If you have to teach a construct how to breath in the first place how could it be considered living i dont know of any organisms that you have to program how to stay alive. Just a thought. Otherwise what every makes you happy if you wan tto go through all the trouble to make you construct that complex...knock your self out (not literally...just have fun doing it )

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Posted on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:23 pm

### Draken_

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 102

Question:: is it considered murder if you create a psi-person and kill them? is it even possible to create a psi-human?

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Posted on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:52 pm

### psi_manipulator_3000

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1274

It wouldn't be murder in the laws eyes, that's for sure. But, strangley, I don't think it would be murder, no matter how alive looking you make it. Maybe, at the point where you consider it to be murder, it is classed as a living thing.

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Posted on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:53 pm

### paraplayer

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 147

intrepidus6 wrote:

Proof that ants have emotion:
They work together as a group, but just like humans (whom I beleive we can all agree have emotion) they somtimes don't get along.
They serve the queen, and except her leadership.
they have a special place for the dead, and go searching if one of there own is lost.
They take care of there young, and move them if danger comes.

Do you have a source for all of this?
I don't see how caring for young and serving the queen are proof of leadership. THat could simply be instinct. They whole dead burial thing is interesting though, a souce would be appreciated!
EDIT: looks like there's quite a debate about the whole animal emotion thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_in_animals

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Posted on Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:11 pm

### Pcion

Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 6

This is really allabout point of view. I mean, up until recently, most people believed that animals had no emotions, and were little more than organic machines designed merely for our amusement. They weren't really considered "alive". This example is not meant to open up a can of worms I really don't feel like dealing with, ever, in life. The point is that the definition of life is subjective. If you define it as having a soul, then it all depends on how it's programmed. Otherwise, no. Personally, I define life as having a soul, but that's just my opinion.

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Posted on Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:02 pm

### AuraTwilight

Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 18

I think Psi-pets, Psi-people, etc. count as living, whether or not they have "souls." Though, but in my opinion, it's not whether or not they're alive, but whether or not they have rights. You made the Construct. You are it's "god." You define it. There's no black box. If you think it's alright to kill your construct, it is. If not, it isn't. If you love your Construct and it loves you back, then it becomes as real as you.
But I don't think Constructs "die" anyway. I think their psychic energy returns to the universe, and in that way they kind've become immortal.

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Posted on Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:40 pm

### fyremoon

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 6

I looked at this thread and thought about the psi food thread.
If you create a psi strawberry, for instance, made it a psi-pet-strawberry, would you be able to eat it?
Would you consider yourself a psi-cannibal for doing so?
If you created a psi-human, it could turn on you but could it kill you? If it could, would it dissolve when you die?
If not, having the police arrest a construct for your murder would be interesting and the headlines would just be too much!

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Posted on Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:52 pm

### Elliptic

Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 199

intrepidus6 wrote:
Proof that ants have emotion: They work together as a group, but just like humans (whom I beleive we can all agree have emotion) they somtimes don't get along.

They're biologically programmed for species survival.

Quote:
They serve the queen, and except her leadership.

They don't serve the queen, and she doesn't have leadership. She's the sole reproductive organ for the colony, and as a result, she is the focus of the colony which intends to survive...if we can use the term "intends," in and of itself inaccurate.

Quote:
they have a special place for the dead, and go searching if one of there own is lost.

They eat the dead, typically. They don't go searching for lost - they respond to pheronomic chemical signals. There is no 'choice' here. It is biologically hardwired for them to do so.

Quote:
They take care of there young, and move them if danger comes.

Again, this is a colony survival action. It's biologically hardwired, not an emotionally driven choice.

Quote:
I'm sure we have more complex emotions than ants, but they do obviusly have emotions, this is especially evedent with there burial thing.

Not obvious to me. Or any entomologists I know. Including the one I asked about this when I was younger.

Quote:
Just because we humans think we are the smartest things on Earth dosen't make us any better than other living things.

No, it's not the the fact that we think we are. It's the fact that we are. We have the greatest capacity for thought of any other animal on earth - dolphins come in as a close second, but they miss the mark.
Actually, though, the fact that we think about ourselves may well be the difference. Humans have the capacity for meta-cognition: thinking about thinking. Other animals don't. We're not necessarily more valuable, or "better," but we are more intelligent.

Quote:
But lets all pretend for a moment that ants don't have emotion. You still can't justfy killing them for no reason, as many people do.

It's not hard to pretend. It's true. But I can justify killing them for no reason: they get in my way, and interfere with my food. They invade my private living area.

Quote:
And ants do have a central nervous system. So that is proof that they feel pain.

Ants don't have central nervous systems. Ants have a series of ganglia which drive the individual parts of their body. There is no "brain." Further, ants don't feel pain. Here's a nice article on the subject.

Quote:
And I know form keeping a pet scorpion, that bugs have emotion. That scorpion can be loving and gentle, but if you piss her off, she gets really angry. And I have seen her get really scared too, like when a stranger is around.

In other words, she responds to stimuli. Nice. Doesn't demonstrate emotion.
Edit: I reread your post, and you didn't actually make an argument. If you're going to prove something, you need premises that support a conclusion. You tried, but looks like you failed. Sorry.

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Posted on Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:07 am

### Kaiandy

Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 109

Good job Elliptic. I had been thinking of a way to put that down for a couple of days now yet couldn't think of the wording. Great proof.

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Posted on Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:18 pm

### Elliptic

Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 199

Kaiandy wrote:
Good job Elliptic. I had been thinking of a way to put that down for a couple of days now yet couldn't think of the wording. Great proof.

I didn't post a proof. Proofs, again, require premises supporting an undeniable conclusion. I've just demonstrated a fact.
That said, anything sentient is worthy of moral consideration. If you make your "psi pet" sentient - truly sentient - then it's worthy of moral consideration. Fortunately, such things are not truly sentient - true sentience is extraordinarily difficult to create, and none of us have the capacity to do it, really. Myriad, who some of you may know about, spent 2 years working on actual sentience, and failed.
Very difficult thing to accomplish - it can be approximated, or mimicked, much like a complicated machine or computer, but ultimately, that's all it is, and therefore it is unworthy of moral consideration.

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Posted on Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:50 am

### d_488

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 39

I would just like to point out that human intelegance is a survival action too. If you took away all of humanititys inventions and "advanced intelegance" We would more than likely die out because we have verry little natural defences against anything we would run into, and without tool we would have little we could eat beside plants. Without our hoses and medacine and doctors we would die more of desease and age. We developed intelagence because it was important for our survival. Now we're smart enogh to use it for things that arnet vital.

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Posted on Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:46 am

### Joshy

Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 544

Who really cares if constructs are living, though? If you believe they're living, Believe that.
I, personally, wouldn't have a problem with killing a psionic "pet", but hey that's just my opinion. Then again, I wouldn't mind killing alot of the human race.
Each to their own?

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Posted on Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:00 am

### Theorist

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 315

Hey yo! what is a psi-pet anyway? its a psi construct rite? then again, what is a psi construct....isnt it a psiball that was being programmed.....so basically....psipets are jus programs.......and wouldnt it be dumb to think that ur computer programs are alive?....if so....how can these pets be alive?
and Joshy...nice one there.....the kill....lol

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Posted on Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:05 pm

### cenesis

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1

I believe that the constructs we make can develop over time and evolve. There is evidence of computer programs that have been written purely to reproduce themselves which have eventually evolved to become more efficient without any outside influence. I think the more of yourself you put into a construct and the longer you have it, the more 'alive' it becomes. However, I am sure it is a matter of opinion as to how you might want to see and treat your constructs.

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