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Read up, Grow up.
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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:00 am

### neveza

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1147

Not good enough, dude, you need something more to back up your evedince on your so called "facts".
sure, we can cause things to form out of nothingness as it seems (following physics of course), but there has to be a limit. If you made a batch of brownies out of thin air, I may think a bit more differently, but I'd would wait for some form of scientific evedince. Don't give me "We create science with our minds" shit, if that was true, Physics wouldn't be so fucking precise.
but, someone else could hold out a better argument then I, since I don't give a damn.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:07 am

### pyro

Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 60

We don't form things out of nothingness, don't we take enrgy from the things around us and our own energy and just form them into different things? Not out of nowhere?

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:39 am

### neveza

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1147

pyro wrote:
We don't form things out of nothingness, don't we take enrgy from the things around us and our own energy and just form them into different things? Not out of nowhere?

no, of course not, it agianst physics, up to my knowledge.
but, nobody really knows where this energy is from, so I say "as it seems".

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:28 am

### Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

I'd like to point out a trend that every psion in here is following. Everyone is saying "It can't be that simple" or just flat out saying "You're wrong". I find it no coincidence that these are the same psions who have trouble moving anything bigger than a piece of paper on a pin (and if you come back with "no I can move a pen!", you might as well be arguing that, by having 4 cents instead of 3, you are rich).
The continuing trend I've found with every person accomplished in metaphysics of any sort (magick, psionics, chi, etc.) is that they have realized the elegance of their realities. But that sounds a little vague so perhaps it will help if I define elegance the way I mean it (no doubt it will be a word off from the OED interpretation and I'll get slammed for it, but whatever). Elegance is the result of making something intricate, detailed and complex into something easily perceived and manipulated. Everyone has a "map" of reality that they create throughout their lives with the numerous but still very limited facts a single brain can hold. Once you've thought enough and created an accurate map, trends start to appear in reality. When trends start to appear, whole detailed sections regarding life can be expressed with extreme simplicity. So with enough thought and experience, the elegance becomes apparent.
What does this have to do with psionics? Well it's the Holy Grail essentially. If you understand the trends and are able to perceive and manipulate the metaphysical without being caught up in pointless details, the end result is that your abilities are limitless.
And for all you people who said "psionics isn't an illusion, you're wrong" read the post again. You missed so much meaning in those paragraphs that I can hardly try to sum it up with my own post. It's hardly anyone's fault, it's simply due to having an incomplete map and not being able to relate to the trends or truths that were being stated.
Good post Avius.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:47 am

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

im sorry, i could read the first post due to bad grammar.
"(and if you come back with "no I can move a pen!", you might as well be arguing that, by having 4 cents instead of 3, you are rich). "
yes, i might as well be argueing that because if it is an illusion, how do i put the object down in one place and pick it up in another? How does someone else see it? How does a camera see it? hmmmmm.
What is reality? How do we know that our "life" is reality? How do we know that we are not just making it all up? If we are making it all up, then psionics is "reality" because then it, along with everything else, is fake. But then we never know what is real. So how would we compare it? We cant. If hallusinations cause the object to move, great. Our mind creates hallusinations --> it moves the object, therefore, the object is moved by our mind. Hmmm, sounds like telekinesis does it not?

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:21 pm

### Avius_Krilaventus

Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 60

one human copys another, someone does the hard work and someone gets the easy way out.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:28 pm

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

and how does that work?
Since i can move a hole-puncher, your theory says that anyone that sees my video can move a hole-puncher. Obviously that does not work.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:34 pm

### Lucidess

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 837

He might be meaning that the people who mostly learned this stuff on their own, wrote articles or taught or shown that it's real, and others follow the same method they took, and most of the time it seems to work. Like.. teacher to student kind of thing.
I wanted to post in here for a long time but it's all.. intelligent indimidating!

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:40 pm

### ShadowWolfX

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 507

Lightbringer, since you seem to grasp it better then us how about you explain the points I brought up earlier about the other fields of psionics, fill us in on the many loopholes, also explain his comment of only him knowing quantum physics fully? Because, hell, if he does why isnt he writting books and winning the nobel prize for clearing up a field that is mostly shrouded.
You seem to be analyzing everything but the obvious Lightbringing, observing our "trends" and saying "Because XXX cant do XXX to them its jibberish", but you've overlooked the biggest trend almost ALL of humanity lives by, no proof, no go. He is giving us nothing but cheap words and ramblings with many loopholes and talk of being 'gods'. All talk and no show wont win anyone over, espicially not in the scientific community, its like saying "2+2=Chair", that and only that.
The fact of the matter is there are to many loopholes, misconceptions, contradictions, and lack of proof for any non-gulliable psions here on this site to bite into. I keep an open mind, yes, I even did on that "library" thing mentioned before, a mid-point but open mind you, but even I have limits on what I will be open to and this is past that limit since nothing ties together.'
In result, you want to break the trend? Then Show us psions science fact, not science fiction.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:44 pm

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

Apollo wrote:
and how does that work? Since i can move a hole-puncher, your theory says that anyone that sees my video can move a hole-puncher. Obviously that does not work.

I want an answer to my question!

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:29 pm

### Lucidess

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 837

oops.. Apollo, the past post I made was supposed to be an awnser to your question, but if it is invalid or wrong to you than just ignore me.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:48 pm

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

oh

Lucidess wrote:

He might be meaning that the people who mostly learned this stuff on their own, wrote articles or taught or shown that it's real, and others follow the same method they took, and most of the time it seems to work. Like.. teacher to student kind of thing.
I wanted to post in here for a long time but it's all.. intelligent indimidating!

Well then why are there so many articles? Why do people have to tweak some articles to make it work for them? That explination doesnt work either.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:56 pm

### Lucidess

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 837

well apollo, you have a point XD i hate disputing and discussing about something as heated as this.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:00 pm

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

Lucidess wrote:
well apollo, you have a point XD i hate disputing and discussing about something as heated as this.

Its not really heated. I am just pointing out the huge holes in their theory.

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Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:01 pm

### Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

Apollo wrote:
and how does that work? Since i can move a hole-puncher, your theory says that anyone that sees my video can move a hole-puncher. Obviously that does not work.

Sure, if the person understands their nature and the nature of the universe, then of course they can. So if you can't simply do something, the problem is that you've yet to understand yourself (and the universe since the two are intrinsically connected and knowledge of one results in knowledge about the other).
The only thing that is missing from Avius' post is simply that to him, the truth is obvious but almost everyone suffers from a case of finding the obvious elusive. The transition from ignorance to total self-knowledge is not immediate, or due to a single epiphany but rather a total reshaping of one's paradigm which results in a reframing of all past experiences. This reshaping occurs as often as you want it to (if you work harder on improving and learning about yourself, the quicker you will understand yourself obviously) and only after it's happened enough is the truth apparent.
So yes, if you can move a hole puncher, and someone sees you do it, then they are able to move the hole puncher. The only variable is their level of self knowledge. If they work towards understanding then they will eventually realize their abilities and be able to move the hole puncher like it was nothing. However they could just as easily not bother improving and learning about themselves and remain stagnant, never realizing their ability to move that hole puncher. Whether they are capable of it or not is not the question, but rather "do they realize they are capable?" An analogy would be: A nuclear reactor is capable of creating power, regardless of whether it's switched on or off, the only variable is the position of the switch.
However this requirement of the reshaping of how one's mind works means that a truth in it's elegant form is completely useless to a "non-enlightened" mind. You need to learn a lot more about yourselves and the world before you can simply do whatever you please. What Avius has presented is a truth in elegant form but, since elegance is gained as self-knowledge increases and basically everyone here is quite low on the "self-understanding scale", to express it in a form that someone who knows nothing about themselves would understand requires making the truth less and less elegant. Thus, you guys are asking for some all-encompassing conclusion and we can't write it without writing out our entire lives. The best way to learn the truth is to live your life and improve yourself, simple as that.
The same goes for the quantum physics knowledge Avius and myself have. Quantum physics is basically the scientific explanation of many spiritual ideas (Taoism, Zen Buddhism and Hinduism have all predicted quantum effects centuries before we even discovered atoms) as well as many life lessons. Again, as a whole those quantum facts are elegant, but when broken down to a layman's level, the amount of writing involved is not something anyone could do unless they could write down absolutely everything about themselves, ever.
Thus you see the predicament with trying to spoon feed someone with all the relevant information. Ultimately, its not something we can do, and while Avius' intention was no doubt sincere (he wanted to educate) the only way you can do so is in very small steps combined with much more work on the student's part as opposed to the mentor's. I know the whole "It is the job of whoever expresses something that seems illogical to prove it" Socratic argumentative style but this hardly applies here because more than intellectual knowledge is relevant here. Experiences and ideas are often too complex for words and must be perceived firsthand to understand. So if such truths don't make sense, now you know why as I've laid it out in detail. However I would like to note that calling us idiots or liars only shows your unwillingness to grow and learn. Questioning however is encouraged, but don't ask for the whole truth, as it's useless to you, ask about a tiny chunk of related info and build yourself up thus allowing yourself to condense your knowledge to an elegant form.

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