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I'm skeptic: Why all the hate?
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I'm skeptic: Why all the hate? on Wed May 24, 2006 6:09 pm

### Dbizket

Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 85

I'm wondering why some subjects aren't allowed, even when relevent. Is it to keep the peace between posters? This seems like a, eh, semi mature board, and therefore everyone should just respect each other. No religion? Psi deals with religion a lot. This problem can be solved by no one forcing religion on others and respecting that different people have different religions. No topics about drugs? I can understand that more, but not when it's relevent and one wants a serious discussion involving them. That again can be solved by not encouraging others to do drugs, but respecting others lifestyles that may involve them.
This goes for other rules though but it severely limits speech and opinions. If this is a free board to discuss opinions anyways, it shouldn't be a problem to begin with.

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Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 6:39 pm

### bladeslinger

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 1337

psi doesnt really have any religious content.......and once religion is dragged in, flaming starts.....I say mostly keep your religious talk in private chats.....I'm not sure about drugs but I think it's so some people won't start doing drugs to improve on psionics..
They may kind of lower the freedom but would you sacrifice a bit of freedom for learning stuff in a polite atmosphere?

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Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 7:29 pm

### neveza

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1147

You need to remember, The Peebs and the mods have a iron fist around here, what they say goes. alright, Remember that!
If they say it's not allowed then it's not allowed, not because of your belief.
Other's members are just bastards or miss interpretated and seen as evil little people who hate anybody agianst their own view.
It's life, not everybody is acceptable on one belief, but I understand, some flamming posts aren't acceptable.

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Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 8:43 pm

### bladeslinger

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 1337

neveza wrote:

You need to remember, The Peebs and the mods have a iron fist around here, what they say goes. alright, Remember that!
If they say it's not allowed then it's not allowed, not because of your belief.
Other's members are just bastards or miss interpretated and seen as evil little people who hate anybody agianst their own view.
It's life, not everybody is acceptable on one belief, but I understand, some flamming posts aren't acceptable.

bluntly put....but exactly right...

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Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 9:01 pm

### Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

If you hate the rules at this place, you're free to leave. But sure, I'll discuss the reasoning behind the rules, if you want to spend the time and read.
"No religion" accomplishes a few things. The most useful thing it accomplishes is that it distinguishes PsiPog from all the other psychic communities out there. A lot of people come here BECAUSE we don't allow religious discussion. It's annoying to ask a question, and people start giving answers with gods and goddesses, and astral demons, and whatever else.
"No religion" means the people here have to think a little harder, and not explain every little thing using a religious backdoor. The classic example is how people used to think Zeus would throw lightning bolts down from the clouds. Human's have such a strong desire to explain things that if they can't understand something, they will CREATE an explaination (that is usually completely wrong and makes no sense). I would rather hear the answer, "I have no idea how that works", rather than some fabricated religious explaination.
"No religion" also serves one of PsiPog's main goals, which is to have healthy skepticism and speak ONLY from: 1. personal experience, or 2. someone else's personal experience (and cite them). This cuts out a lot of bullshit. Focusing on personal experience allows us to narrow in on the hard facts of a situation. Did you get blessed by an angel in an out of body experience? Or did you perceive all white and feel good while meditating? Some people will experience something very basic and simple, and create a huge deal over it and pretend something ground breaking happened. Are you getting attacked by astral gods? Or do you just have a headache (possibly from not eating for a few hours)?
If my examples seem silly, believe me when I say I've seen a LOT of stupid shit.
Also, religion is a pretty heated topic. A lot of people fly off the handle over it. Having "No religion" keeps the peace, and allows people of different faiths to communicate on a universal level.
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"No drugs", as explained in your other complaint thread, is because we get a lot of kids on PsiPog. I remember one kid who was 8, some 9 year olds, a few 10-12... and of course a substantial amount of 13 year olds. Your post was baiting someone into saying that drugs helped them in some way (which did happen by the third reply, I think). No one should do illegal drugs, and young kids are impressionable. It's my responsibility to provide an environment where they won't be encouraged to do something really stupid.
Honestly, our rules aren't that strict. There are so many other things to talk about other than religion and drugs. You act like you're not allowed to talk about ANYTHING. If it's really that bad, and you can't help yourself, then go find another forum on the internet. It's not like this is the only forum in existance. And of course, as long as you don't break the rules, you're free to post your non-religious and non-drug ideas on the PsiPog forums at any time .
~Sean

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Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 9:19 pm

### Yamamaya

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 292

no real other way to say it.
also, with the diverse religions, if one starts spouting christian beliefs, a jewish or muslim or even a buddist may start flaming. it'l become an online belief war.

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Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 9:42 pm

### Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

Trading freedom for security...anyone else reminded of "V for Vendetta"? What is demonstrated in that movie is exactly the mental stunting that's being encouraging by refusing to speak on the topics of religion and drugs. Foreign substances' effects on the human mind and body are undeniable, and so undoubtably affect one's ability to manipulate psi. Belief is a HUGE part of psionics, and is also deeply connected with religion. Religious books are also small fortunes of metaphysical knowledge. Yet, they are not allowed to be talked about.
And people wonder why this community consists of so many people who are barely capable of the most simple psionic tasks (no offense). They've only been allowed to find out about and discuss certain pieces of the puzzle. We need to be able to question it all to be able to solve the puzzle and truly understand psionics. Without trust in the maturity of the members, any progress made will be so infinitesimally small, it might as well not happen.

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Posted on Wed May 24, 2006 9:47 pm

### embrace

Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 82

http://www.neo-tech.com
Try visiting this website and you'll learn exactly what's so bad about religion and mystic beleifs. Be sure to read everything.

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Posted on Thu May 25, 2006 5:40 am

### Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

Lightbringer wrote:
They've only been allowed to find out about and discuss certain pieces of the puzzle. We need to be able to question it all to be able to solve the puzzle and truly understand psionics.

What is stopping you from questioning religion? It's not like PsiPog polices people's minds and forces everyone to ONLY POST HERE. If you want to question religion, surf the web for another site. If you want to research religion, pick up a book, or use google. Or go to a service. I really don't care - it's not like I'm going to hunt you down in church and ban you from the forums.
You people act like I have authority over your entire lives. I control the PsiPog forums and the PsiPog chat - that's it. These forums are not designed to make everyone happy and allow anything that anyone could want. They are designed to talk about psionics on a scientific level.
IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING NOT ALLOWED, THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. I'm not stopping you! I visit multiple forums. When I want to talk about game programming, I go to a few other forums. I don't start a new topic on PsiPog about game programming. Same thing.
~Sean

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mutters about the concept of freedom of speech on Thu May 25, 2006 5:51 pm

### Rainsong

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 67

This comes up often enough, that I'm going to weigh in here, too.
This is site is run by a private person, and paid for out of his pocket. Limiting the topic of discussion on his own site is NOT an infringement of anyone's freedom of speech, expression, or association.
Deal with it.
Strong message follows.

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Posted on Thu May 25, 2006 7:43 pm

### Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

I respect the decision of the staff, I'm merely stating the issues it creates in the suitable place. If the staff wants a bunch of people who are learning parlor tricks but not really gaining a serious understanding of the subject, then so be it as long as they know what that decision's ramifications are.

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Posted on Thu May 25, 2006 10:09 pm

### sgtpsion

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 425

You'll notice this post is repeating a lot of what I said in my post on you other complaint thread.
It's not that we hate religion or anything, in fact, a good chunk of us are religious, including myself. We just don't talk about it. We're just trying to keep things credible, reliable, and down-to-earth. Is that too much to ask?

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Posted on Fri May 26, 2006 5:01 am

### Roy

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 416

Lightbringer wrote:

Trading freedom for security...anyone else reminded of "V for Vendetta"? What is demonstrated in that movie is exactly the mental stunting that's being encouraging by refusing to speak on the topics of religion and drugs. Foreign substances' effects on the human mind and body are undeniable, and so undoubtably affect one's ability to manipulate psi. Belief is a HUGE part of psionics, and is also deeply connected with religion. Religious books are also small fortunes of metaphysical knowledge. Yet, they are not allowed to be talked about.
And people wonder why this community consists of so many people who are barely capable of the most simple psionic tasks (no offense). They've only been allowed to find out about and discuss certain pieces of the puzzle. We need to be able to question it all to be able to solve the puzzle and truly understand psionics. Without trust in the maturity of the members, any progress made will be so infinitesimally small, it might as well not happen.

People love to toss around the freedom/security analogy, mostly at inappropriate times and places. Psipog offers advice for so called newbies to psionics. Hence the low level of skill of most of Psipog's visitors. What you say is like chastising a pee-wee league softball team for having horrible skills; no shit they do, because they're beginners. It also appears to me that most of the so-called "advanced techniques" are untested and are derived from personal theories that aren't worth the bandwidth needed to view them in an internet browser.
You may be correct in the assumption that drug use, since it affects physiology, can also affect psionics. Likewise with religious belief and mindframes. Consider this: you show me a psion who depends on drugs and religion to enhance their abilities, and I'll show you a burnout who won't be a psion for very long. I think most will agree that drugs and religion are wholly unecessary for psionics, and can be easily replaced by proper practice and confidence building.
Psipog trims the fat, aka religion, drug use, and etc. What is left is the meat of psionics.
Somehow I seriously doubt you're a wise sage who understands the deepest complexities of psionics, or the occult in general. I can't say that I am either, but neither of us are in any position to say what is a valid source of metaphysical knowledge and what is complete oogie-boogie-hoodoo-bullshit. What we can do is recognize the soverignty of a privately owned and published website that maintains certain terms of use.
You question Psipog's mistrust of it's users, I think you're flat out wrong. Right off the bat, Psipog provides readily available documents for all viewers regarding psychic functioning. That alone can lead to radki or radpsi enthusiasts to take this information and exaggerate it into tremendous proportions. If we didn't trust our patrons to refrain from this all too common trend, then why would we make this information publically available? In addition, Psipog promotes a mature mindframe for its users by providing multiple articles on psionic shielding, the most basic form of psychic self-defense. You say we underestimate the level of maturity in our users; I say we promote maturity in our users. This is what creates progress.

Lightbringer wrote:
I respect the decision of the staff, I'm merely stating the issues it creates in the suitable place. If the staff wants a bunch of people who are learning parlor tricks but not really gaining a serious understanding of the subject, then so be it as long as they know what that decision's ramifications are.

Seriously, who are you to say that what we do is merely parlor tricks? Some of the authors at Psipog have done more amazing psionic feats than you. I've yet to see one of these authors who needs or uses drugs and religion to do them. I'm guessing your concept of serious understanding involves experimentation with multiple drugs and drifting from several religious and spiritual traditions to find the ultimate truth of psychic functioning. If that's how you intend to find it, I think you're on the wrong path. That is, of course, my opinion.

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Posted on Fri May 26, 2006 8:29 am

### sgtpsion

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 425

Roy's right. Psi CAN and does get done without religion, drugs, et cetera ad nauseam (for those who don't speak Laitn, that means "and so on to the point of sickness"). PsiPog wants this bare-bones approach to Psi. It's the best way to ensure the highest degree of reliability for techniques from person to person. Granted, not every technique will work perfectly for everyone, but if you're an atheist who doesn't do drugs, you can still use 100% of PsiPog's techniques.
'Nuff said.

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Posted on Fri May 26, 2006 11:42 am

### Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

First off, I'm not responding to a lot of what you said because most of what you said I agree with. You seem to be countering points I don't support so it seems like I should spend more time outlining my beliefs of what drugs/religion should be talked about subjects.

Roy wrote:
Somehow I seriously doubt you're a wise sage who understands the deepest complexities of psionics, or the occult in general. I can't say that I am either, but neither of us are in any position to say what is a valid source of metaphysical knowledge and what is complete oogie-boogie-hoodoo-bullshit. What we can do is recognize the soverignty of a privately owned and published website that maintains certain terms of use.

And when would we be in a position to discriminate between what is hocus pocus and what is truly metaphysical knowledge? Why wouldn't some of us already be able to do just that? You seem to believe in something stopping us from reaching that point, but you haven't outlined what that limitation is.

Roy wrote:

You question Psipog's mistrust of it's users, I think you're flat out wrong. Right off the bat, Psipog provides readily available documents for all viewers regarding psychic functioning. That alone can lead to radki or radpsi enthusiasts to take this information and exaggerate it into tremendous proportions. If we didn't trust our patrons to refrain from this all too common trend, then why would we make this information publically available? In addition, Psipog promotes a mature mindframe for its users by providing multiple articles on psionic shielding, the most basic form of psychic self-defense. You say we underestimate the level of maturity in our users; I say we promote maturity in our users. This is what creates progress.
Seriously, who are you to say that what we do is merely parlor tricks? Some of the authors at Psipog have done more amazing psionic feats than you. I've yet to see one of these authors who needs or uses drugs and religion to do them. I'm guessing your concept of serious understanding involves experimentation with multiple drugs and drifting from several religious and spiritual traditions to find the ultimate truth of psychic functioning. If that's how you intend to find it, I think you're on the wrong path. That is, of course, my opinion.

Psipog trusts it's member to a certain extent. Allowing some subjects but limiting exposure to others is not complete trust though. Again, I want to mention that I'm not saying this site is a waste of time because of these limitations, and I appreciate the work that goes into the site, but it's potential is limited by not allowing certain subjects. The progress you speak of is again limited though. Without much exposure to the more controversial aspects of metaphysics, the members only get the chance to become mildly experienced before their development is no longer possible, at least through this site. As your said yourself, many of the "advanced techniques" are of questionable quality and most of the posts in the forums are tackling very basic questions. These basic exercises, like the use of a psi wheel, are useful but when people are using with them for years, something is obviously missing. At this point, such an "exercise" is simply a parlor trick because it does not teach the psion anything new (or a challenge). It's just a toy, something to play around with. Yes, there are some tales of amazing abilities which I don't doubt the validity of, but how common are they? Are we just going to re-tell the old stories of a select few or do we want to create new stories and learn from those extraordinary experiences?
What's missing is a deeper understanding of psionics which can only be gained through discussion and application of all the metaphysical knowledge at our disposal. I'm not saying "Do some crack kids, it'll make you a better psion!" but there are accounts of how drugs affect one's abilities (because believe it or not, some people do drugs regardless of whether or not psipog condemns discussion of it). By comparing those effects to the way such drugs affect your perception, it can give insight into how psionic abilities are affected by perception, certain mindsets, etc. Tell me such knowledge is not useful.
However, what is just as essential is how obvious it becomes that drugs DON'T help psionics and can hinder abilities. By quieting all discussion about it, you create mystery and misunderstandings around it and, voila, you've created the problem you were trying to avert. It's proven that parents who talk to their kids about why they shouldn't do drugs as opposed to just saying it's forbidden get through to their kids far more easily. Thus, even if you do not advocate the use of drugs for psionic enhancement or the acquisition of knowledge, it is more useful to allow discussion on the subject.
As for religion, I won't say "religion is a drug" (Marxist as I may be ), but many of the same points apply. By discussing dogma (rather than forcing it down other people's throats), mystical teachings and knowledge held within almost every world religion, the members gain two things: The loss of mystique and misunderstanding about religions (and so gain a more effective critiquing ability) and access to another banquet of knowledge that will better held their understanding of metaphysics.
As you can see, my point isn't that these topics should be discussed because dogma and substance abuse will make you a better psion. It's because general awareness and having access to that much more knowledge will have profound effects on people's thoughts, perceptions and ultimately their abilities.

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