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I just don't know what to say about this! Fake videos!
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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:13 am

### Kief

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 120

"Is there even a point to argue with one who such cannot accept that he is wrong and uses such hypocritical means to justify his ends?"
I have not been incorrect with anything I have said.
Nor have you said anything that invalidated a single point I have made, where as I have proved everything I have said.
Stop making things up now, it's pathetic.
"Apparently he's 'so mature' as to not use personal attacks...I can really see that."
You have been the one using personal attacks, but it seems you can't even read the junk you post.
Did you see my videos? I bet you didn't bother, you can't take the blow to your pride
"If you guys didn't get it by now, Kief isn't going to be convinced until someone throws a car at him (under lab conditions of course ) with PK."
Actually you could never get it to work. As the second most powerful being in existence there is no car you could lift and throw at me.
And yea, I won't be convinced until you do something REAL. Not move a silly pinwheel around with air.
I said be creative. Throwing a car isn't creative, that's a form of illusion any magician can perform. Throw a flock of turkeys. Pull a tree up out of the ground from it's roots and throw that. Throw a real fireball.
"And Kief, since you're obviously mature (since you're older than us because as we all know, maturity comes directly with age ),"
Pretty much for the most part yea. If your going to try and make arguments that teenagers are more mature than people who are actually adults, I want to see some wonderous proof showing how 13-17 year olds can hold down well paying jobs, support their family, and be as successful as someone who took 20 years getting there. It just doesn't readily happen. This point is especially proven given the attitute, arguments, and rhetoric some youngins are doling out.
"be the bigger man and stop arguing with people that aren't and won't be convinced."
I do not need to convince anyone, but I will plainly state the facts. The facts are up for you to accept, I can't make you accept reality. But if you fail to accept reality you will be labeled as delusional, and with good reason; as you cannot accept reality.
Life isn't fair, nor am I.
It's just like with telling religionists about evolution. Typically a fundy cultist will never be convinced given any amount of evidence, but I will still tell them the facts of life and reality despite all the denials and attacks and penchant to believe in total insanity and lies.
"For the sake of research it does none of us any good to fake a video."
That doesn't mean people don't do it.
People can easily delude themselves into thinking something is real when it in fact is not. A person could allegedly move a pinwheel thinking it's psi yet cannot move anything else. This frustrates them so they fake a video of something bigger and better so they can move up among their peers. Maybe they figure "I'll just fake this video and make a real one when I can actually do it, which should be soon, cause just look at how much I can move that pinwheel".
"Of course its not meant to prove, but its the best proof we have,"
It's not evidence at all. Videographic evidence can indeed be good evidence, IF what is shown are not silly magic tricks that can be readily faked by anyone with absolutely no effort at all.
"so I say I analyse the videos, see if it seems credible, then I believe it till I hear otherwise."
Things can look credible without any apparent trickery. My videos show this.
When I first found this site I was more impressed with the videos then I am now, as actually making your own and seeing how simple the techniques can be to achieve the desired results is a bit of an eye opener, and it's fun to see how well you can outsurpass others in what they have done with your own techniques.
"Sure I might have been a little skeptical at first, but not so anymore."
I would say I was less skeptical at first and am more skeptical now for many many reasons.
"I think if you could open your eyes and mind a bit more, and just take in possibility....yes, possibility that anything is possible, and that maybe this really can happen."
Open my eyes to what, bullshit?
To deluding myself into thinking magic tricks are real, that frauds are genuine?
I am not going to waste my time on the fake when there is plenty of real out there.
"What would it hurt to try to believe for a bit, try it out, many ways and see if it works for you."
What would hurt to try out christianity for a bit, just try and believe it.?
It would hurt a lot of things, especially my intelligence, to just simply try and believe whatever load of junk some snake oil salesman was trying to huck along the way. Should I just try a little bit of that poison, what would it hurt to believe that just a little is ok? Should I just try out anything someone tries to sell me, what could it hurt (except my pocketbook)? Same for any belief. Why should I believe without one ounce of credible evidence? That's ludicrous and delusional.
"I'm not trying to be too offensive either, but if you want to throw these stones, you might want to try getting hit by a few first, so you know what it feels like, what you're really saying."
Throw stones? Spinning pinwheels is not psionic, period. This is clearly well established with loads of evidence to back it up, yet there are still people who want to deny this fact.
"From your other posts, it also seems that you believe in some paranormal things,"
Ugg........ Did you ever read my posts and see where I ever say I believe in anything, especially paranormal?
"why not then this?"
Because spinning pinwheels is not psionic.
"I just don't understand much of you're ways."
I am not easily duped with what I see. It takes more than camera tricks for me to accept things that any 10 year old can do.

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:01 am

### Kief

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 120

"You know that TK exists,"
I know that paranormal things happen. Whether or not people can move objects with their mind.... Meh.
Could be demonic forces and the hands of satan moving those objects, not your mind.
"yet you dont believe the people that can train it to work for them."
No not at all. But deluding oneself into thinking you are doing, seeing, or experiencing something paranormal when you are really not, is not training, it's delusion and re-enforcing that ill-founded belief.
"You see it as a random form of chance, that only works when you need it."
It can be random. I am more psychic than telekinetic, at least for me that is how my abilities have evolved. I know when things will work, and when they won't, and when I'm being decieved. I know when someone has real ability, real power, and when they don't. There are also some other factors involved with those experiences when younger, and other experiences now.
"Why cant it be trained."
Never said it couldn't. Hell I use it for poker. Does it work? Or am I just always getting better at poker the more I play and the more experience I get? I'd say it's a little of both, and I know the difference, but it's not a readily provable ability.
"If it only worked when we needed it, then nobody would have any success."
Sure you would, you would have success when you really need it.
I do not think even an accomplished and trained miracle worker could make their miracles work for, with, or against me though. And if they did, I could probably take/copy the ability from them and use it myself. But it probably just wouldn't work.
"Why are you trying to disprove something you know to be very real?"
I am not trying to disprove what I know to be real, though I am always open to logical alternatives to what I have experienced. Generally as well I will not place blame or cause on one explanation and roll with that. Eg: Was that thing I saw a real ghost? Or just appear that way, and is really something else? It could be anything. While I would be inclined to make the claim that the paranormal happened, what the mechanism behind it was is a far more elusive question to have answered, and without good evidence, I simply cannot say. I'll have my ideas, but these are neither beliefs nor facts.
I am only trying to show others the difference between something genuine and something that is a trick. If people want to be decieved by the tricks, that's their choice, but I will not let myself be deluded nor give in when they still want to believe the lie.

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:11 pm

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

Stop continuing a pointless war. This is for everyone, not just Kief. We all know Kief's point of view by now so just leave it be!

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:56 pm

### Lerygen

Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 132

Roger that, i stopped a long time ago

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:24 pm

### mattz1010

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 885

Fine, but I have one last thing to say.
this.
"Things can look credible without any apparent trickery. My videos show this. "
No, they don't. The videos are so obviously faked.

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:55 pm

### Kief

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 120

"Fine, but I have one last thing to say.
"this.
Hey all right, you finally figured out what all of your arguments amount to!
"No, they don't. The videos are so obviously faked."
No, what is seen in my videos looks quite real and there are no signs of apparent trickey, and they are no different from any videos seen here or posted here by anyone else. In fact the quality of my videos is much better than most videos here.
Ah well more haphazard denials from a spamming troll. You didn't think I'd make the videos and I did. You lose. Keep denying reality, it's hilarious!

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:18 pm

### JoeT

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 349

Hello Kief,
What?s hilarious is your horrible skepticism. I've been meaning to talk to you for quite some time now. Time has been against me these days so I haven't had the time to discuss PK with you. Look forward to a nice discussion with me sometime soon. Your actions are quite frankly pissing me off and that will end soon.
Look forward to my discussion.
- JoeT

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:39 pm

### Rahmid

Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 739

ok keif....I think you fail to see what most of us are saying....STOP. This really isn't the place to do this. Take this to the skeptic's forum. It is just a click away. And you can pointlessly bicker there. PLEASE take this out of the PK forum. It is just polution.
This forum was for discussing what Keith Mayars(sp) found. Not a validation of the existance of PK or not, which you've spark and helped, along with some psions, turn into a roaring fire. just a click away and this pointless bickering will unfourunetly be welcomed no matter how little difference it will make.
Rahmid

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Posted on Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:04 am

### Lucidess

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 837

So uh.. when is this thread gonna die yet? kinda bugs me when i want to say something, but then i think.. is it worth to post something? Almost seems like i'm afraid i will get pushed around by others XD

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Posted on Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:26 am

### JoeT

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 349

Hello Lucidess,
Please post your opinion wherever you wish. You should not be afraid or have to think twice to state your opinion or add a comment. I have more time on my hands now, I'll keep an eye on things more. Mainly bad skeptics. Feel free to post, if Kief or anyone has a problem with it, I'll take care of it.
Take care.
- JoeT

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Posted on Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:00 pm

### Kwanza

Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 12

Hey Keif,
Don't take this as another argument ignition, it's not what I'm attempting. Just sharing my opinion on this matter.
There is fake videos, and a bit of your evidence IS feasible. But really, you shouldn't come here just flamebaiting with information pulled out of your ass.
This is a place for intelligent discussion, as put in bold, enlarged font above the reply box. Unsupported skepticism is annoying. Give it all a try yourself first, before jumping to the automatic conclusion that we're all faking it.
I'm not trying to say it's all real, there is fakes, but if you think through it logically. A community of around 10,000 couldn't all be fakes schemeing togther.
Please, try and learn some of the techniques before posting your skeptical flames again, and stop crowding the forum with negativity.
Thanks.
- Kwanza

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Posted on Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:20 pm

### SumacMaster

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

I've never got PK to work yet, and I'm not an expert on this, but Kief did have some valid points. It's easy to make the mistake when you are just starting to interpret static electricity and convection as actual TK. I did (and it was). And that probably isn't something you should be doing, working in a way where actually moving the wheel could be a number of things.
Furthermore some of you did a typical anti-skeptic blowoff which didn't address any of the problems Kief addressed besides the proof of you saying 'you did it' and psionic videos which Peebrain himself has said are not proof. That doesn't give him any proof, and therefore he continued to press his point rationally even in the midst of some telling him practically to F-off.
Look, I don't know if Kief has been a long time problem (looking through his posts it looks like he has gone through a lot of trouble trying to debunk the psiwheel) but I thought what happened here was slightly immature.
That being said, Kief, the only things your videos and examples show are ways to fake it. Congrats, but you can't really prove something is not real by showing a way to do it with trickery. And next time please use the appropriate forum.
A forum is for discussion everyone, not for one set of opinions to drown out another. Dismissing a skeptic as someone that will just 'go away' is unhealthy. Once in a while they have a stance that might be worth looking into.
(For the record, I have gotten some other psionic applications to work for me, so please, don't blow me off as a skeptic)

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Posted on Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:16 am

### Forai

Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 11

"A forum is for discussion everyone, not for one set of opinions to drown out another. Dismissing a skeptic as someone that will just 'go away' is unhealthy. Once in a while they have a stance that might be worth looking into. "
(All opinions)
A forum is discussion for everyone but sometimes a certain side probibly shouldn't be brought up. Let me put it this way.
Forums about people who have lost their relatives to the holocaust.
"If americans hadn't butted in the war we would have acheved perfection with our breeding tactics, (imput explicit word and implication of jewish religion being dumb.)"
And that's the last time I'm checking this thread.

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Posted on Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:04 am

### Kief

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 120

SumacMaster, the voice of reason!
I have reinstituted my faith in humanity now LoL

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Posted on Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:22 am

### SumacMaster

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

Forai wrote:

(All opinions)
A forum is discussion for everyone but sometimes a certain side probibly shouldn't be brought up. Let me put it this way.
Forums about people who have lost their relatives to the holocaust.
"If americans hadn't butted in the war we would have acheved perfection with our breeding tactics, (imput explicit word and implication of jewish religion being dumb.)"

I personally think it is a different situation altogether. That is a community of mourning for individuals of that nature. This is a community where ideas are brought out, challenged, and scrutinized every day. And guess what, this forum is not just a "psions only" club, it is a club for everyone who is in someway interested. If Kief interest in the subject is only to suggest we "Get real" and that we are only fooling ourselves, that is a valid stance.
What occured here was about a 90% an anti-skeptic flame and about 10% actually discussing the topic that was brought up.
My point is is that in this case no party has any hard 100% evidence that psionics exist in the fashion the rest of this site suggests. People got frustrated and started in a bickering match against each other, which lead to just more pissed off people.
The only thing the psionic crowd have offered for proof is "Give all of this stuff a try and you will see!". It appeared to me while reading this that he didn't want to do that due to religious beliefs of some kind (for example, the acknolwedgement of paranormal, vague references linking psionics and devil worship, etc) (correct me if I am wrong of course) and being as religious discussion is not allowed here, we won't get into that, and neither can we pass judgement on you if that be the case.
Conversely the only evidence Kief shows are videos showing how you can perform PK by 'normal' means.
Don't bring the same stuff into discussion over and over again. Research, bring in something new. It is a simple concept.

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