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I just don't know what to say about this! Fake videos!
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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:23 am

### Gonzo

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 798

I just did a few tests with tinfoil on my desk.
I had 4 cups with hot water placed beside it, but it didn't move.
I tried holding a flame of my lighter next to it, it didn't move.
I tried a burning sigarette, didn't move again.
I tried it with TK from a distance of 1 meter, it moved any way I wanted
What does this mean? TK is real, and heat doesn't move a tinfoil on a desk.
Air currents _can_ move it but there was no air moving it ( no fan, window closed, it was laying still untill I did TK )

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:30 am

### bluealien

Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 15

gonzo, expedian, you guys rock. you know thats right, expedian, there is more than one way to skin a cat you could say. water vapor created by the hot cups is one, tk is anoter, your finger pushing it is another, you blowing on it is another, the list could be endless depending on which side of "i believe it" you want to stand on. like i said before, in another way on a different post, if you don't want to see it, you won't.

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:49 am

### psi_manipulator_3000

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 1274

Im not sure whether this has been said yet or not but he didn't explain how someone would be able to do tk in space. There is no air at all so there are no air currents.
Also, i don't think someone is going to fake a video or just fake doing pk just to ammuse themselves. We practice so we can explore what our minds can do, we don't practice to perform.

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:54 am

### Gonzo

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 798

bluealien wrote:
gonzo, expedian, you guys rock.

Thank you,
as Stewie would say: "Congratulations, I've decided not to kill you. (for now)"

psi_manipulator_3000 wrote:
Also, i don't think someone is going to fake a video or just fake doing pk just to ammuse themselves. We practice so we can explore what our minds can do, we don't practice to perform.

I agree why would we practice TK?
Because we want to explore ourselves and see what our minds can do, and to have a fun hobby to do ofcourse.
Why do we make videos?
To show ourselves and others we can really do it, faking is stupid and a waste of time because why should you practice if you don't want to.

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:15 pm

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

Please continue contimplating wether Pk is real or not, but move the conversation to the following thread:
http://www.psipog.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2105

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:14 pm

### Kief

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 120

"Kief, why dont you go to a skeptics website where they actually give a shit about your explanations."
Because I like to teach kids about the really real world.
"Your not going to change anyones mind here."
We'll see.
"Obviously if they signed up they are already interested, if not already skilled."
Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Either way I will give them the facts they need so they do not delude themselves.
"We dont go to skeptics websites trying to recruit people."
So? Why not? I would if I could blow up lightbulbs. I'd also be going to Randi to collect my million. And if he didn't pay up, I'd sue him in court, and I'd and win too, just by blowing up some more lightbulbs.
"Dont come around here with explanations that we have already heard a million times from you people."
Doesn't seem like you have heard them, or heard them enough to listen and learn from your mistakes.
"Skeptics come here and demand proof."
I haven't demanded proof (save from snotty kids who need a lesson), I have simply expressed problems with the videos I see and have proposed mechanisms which explain the movement seen in the videos without using psionic or other paranormal explanations.
"Why dont they try it out for themselves and get their own proof. Lazy bastards."
I have. I can recreate any effect seen in any video here, save for the coin under a glass. That was most likely done with a trick coin and magnet, both of which I do not possess. Other forms of trickery could also have been at work that do not require such a magnet and coin.
As I've said before, it's not the tricks I can think of that make me wonder, it's what I'm not thinking of.
----------------------------------
"*sigh* I told you to use the quote function. It's there for a reason.
Lol. You ignorants are great. You don't want to make videos because you know you're wrong."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't listen to whiny brats
"You're not going to make it, I'm sure."
I'm just going to zip my lips on this
Silly rabbit, trix are for kids.
"It's been proven time and time again.
No, it hasn't. Especially in these videos it hasn't.
"You just can't accept that fact because it doesn't fit in with your views on the world."
You know christians tell me the same thing about the bible?
And quacks all around say the same thing about biblical prophecy, alien abductions, cold fusion, stigmata, etc., etc.
This is no different.
"Given the nature of the website, which you seem to have mistaken for some cult manifesto, it's actually a website directed to newbies to PK. Just to let you know."
And I'm giving newbies excelent advice on how to not delude themselves when they see something move on it's own or think something is moving on it's own, especially by their own mindpower.
"But, since you can't seem to understand that not everybody meets the "Ministry's Standard of Posting Expectations", you, my friend, are up a shit's creek without a paddle"
Awww. Copying things I say only inflates my ego, since it shows you want to be like me and idolize me. So sweet
"Actually, no."
Actually yes.
"You change the topic ever-so-slightly that it fits your argument, and only proves us wrong from your point of view, while appearing to look like a douchebag from everybody else's view."
Ok sure thing Mr. Know It All.
I have not changed the topic at all. YOU HAVE. Man you are crazy. I can't imagine the amount of hooey you actually think is real. Goddess help you.
"This includes people who don't know about, or practice psi."
Anyone with half a brain can see that what I am saying is not only logical, but scientifically sound.
You on the other hand, well, only another immature teenage kid would believe you, simply because they do not want to abandon or accept criticism about their belief system.
"This thread is now about arguing with people who have conceited views on the world and are too stubborn to accept that they're wrong."
So this thread is now about people like you? Good to know.
Funny, I thought this topic was about how the spinning of a pinwheel is not a psionic effect.
Oh shit, it is!
And shit, spinning pinwheels is not a psionic effect!
So why are you so stubbon in accepting that you are wrong? I thought you were the mature and sensible one, as you are claiming?
Clearly, like a child you simply cannot accept when you are wrong.
"I am merely skeptical of people who think that maturity comes with absolute age."
Well guess what, it does. And your behavior especially proves it does.
And oftentimes, people who are grown up in age are still not mentally grown up.
"OMG! I'm 18! I now know how to make concise explanations to pointless arguments!
OMG! I'm 20! Now, I can be even more brainwashed to the political scams!
OMG! I'm 25! Now I get to feel above other people because I'm older than them!"
He just rambles on and on....
So what's this about off topic? LoL
"My claims? I don't think I'm the one that created the video."
No, but you have tried to childishly dismiss it when it clearly shows that spinning a pinwheel has nothing to do with psionics or anything paranormal.
"Yadda yadda yadda. Go take your pills for your alzeheimers, and settle down to your porn. Seems like you need it.
Rantings from a depressed individual. As you should know, rage is depression turned inwards."
You DID smoke meth today! I knew it! That's because I'm psychic
"Because anybody who was on the chat that day can back me up? How's that for true? Just accept facts, kid. You're wrong."
It doesn't matter what second hand accounts anyone can give me. It doesn't matter how many people saw it, how many people can back you up, or what not, because it is not a mental power, is is a trick, and nothing more. It doesn't matter who saw it and who wants to back you up, because the effect has nothing to do with anything paranormal and is entirely bullshit.
Face the facts kid, you are wrong.
"Ok, well, let's see your list."
Already been said, go read, if you even possess the ability to read.
"In...one example only? Nice way to 'prove it all wrong', with ONE EXAMPLE."
Actually you see 3 examples on the website the topic poster posted.
You are a lunatic, and just a dishonest liar.
"Yes, and if you blow on the psiwheel with air, it's obvious. There's no way you can make it spin via just blowing on it. It'd fall off, and I've proven that."
Uh, yes you can, and it doesn't fall off. I show this in my videos.
You can make a wheel spin until it is a blur by blowing on it. You must control your breaths so that you to not let out a puff, that will cause the wheel to tip over.
You have not proven anything except your stupidity. If you think that blowing on a wheel just a little bit makes it fall off before it starts spinning significantly, then prove it by posting videos.
"But, then again, since you're the research master, you should have already seen that post of mine that contained the...16 minute video proving all bullshit skeptic claims wrong."
No, and given all the crap you have been spewing, I'll pass. It'll probably just be more insults and haphazard denials.
Any moron who claims you can't spin a pinwheel by blowing on it, claiming it just falls off, has obviously either never actually tried it himself or is just a dishonest liar.
My videos prove you are delusional and a liar.
"BTW: The wheel falls off"
No, it doesn't. You are nuts.
"So, less air movement = more effect? Geez, I wonder what would happen if there was no wind -_- "
I don't know, but in my video the wheel is under glass and moves all on it's own, WTF right that has to be real
"Show me a temperature camera of it affecting a psiwheel. I dare you, do it. Stop shitting around, and ACTUALLY MAKE THE VIDEO."
Make videos of pinwheels moving? That was the easiest of all to fake.
Now try proving it is real. Let's see it
"Because you're putting words into people's mouths. That's how you're lieing."
I am not putting anything into anyone's mouth. You on the other hand have been caught in numerous lies and acts of dishonesty.
----------------------------------
"Last to my knowledge, blowing on glass does not go through the glass"
No, but warming the air inside the glass would cause air currents to spin, thereby spinning the wheel.
A wheel can be made to move with glass over it. See my videos once they are up
-------------------
"Maybe if that glass is some type of semi-permeable membrane of sorts, wonder if you could do that. o.O creepy"
Nope doesn't need to be any of that. It's all about misdirection.
The KISS rule rules here - Keep It Simple Stupid. This is especially true in terms of illusion, where people will think something is more complicated than it actually is.
Making videos tonight showed me to especially keep that in mind.
"Seriously though, the worst thing you can do right now is reply to his arguments. Just don't pay attention to him. And mattz, as good as the idea of using an infrared camera to record pin wheel movement is, a change in heat could be a side-effect of pk."
Yea, don't listen to me. Don't watch my vids. Please.
"And Kief, how does enclosing something in glass encourage air movement?"
An outside medium can heat up the air inside. A closed container recieving an input of heat energy would cause rising warm air currents to flow and circle around the glass container.
This happens with the earth, in a sense.
"It blocks out foreign air movement (unless you're using semi permeable glass again). And you can argue, "But it traps in heat and pre-existing air currents," but it really is too bad that wouldn't help at all."
Not preexisting ones. An influx of heat must be put into the system, heat from your hands and warm lights could do it.
"Those pre-existing air currents would die once they're trapped inside the glass, unless you keep a heater inside the glass."
The heat comes from outside and causes air to warm on the inside. Warm air is lighter than cold air, and rises, creating a flow which would move the wheel.
"And if the cover traps in heat (which would cause those self-sustaining air currents ), the warm spot would equalize with the surrounding air outside the glass."
Eventually it would equalize without any influx of course. Which is why it would stop when you take your hand away.
"I'm sure a credible scientist such as yourself would be familiar with the 7th grade science terms of conduction and convection. Those hot spots would equalize unless there is a continuous heat source nearby."
Of course, which is why the wheel stops as a hand is moved away.
Unfortunately I have tried to recreate such a mechanism at work with a few methods to no avail. I may be using a jar that does not have a good shape or is too large, or the explanation simply does not work for a covered pinwheel.
My heating medium could also be off. I do not have the ability to try a heat lamp or other such source of heat, though I have tried some other methods of heating up air within the jar.
I am more than satisfied with it as a mechanism to explain uncovered psiwheels, in addition to other mechanisms.
My inability to make hot air currents move a covered psiwheel has led me to delve into other mechanisms to explain it's movement under a glass, which for my experimentation purposes and the results I achieved (moving the wheel under the glass on it's own), without using either heat or psionics.
"Moral of the story, he's not going to be convinced so stop trying."
I won't be convinced by kiddy tricks no, of course not.
Even the explanation we were discussing, hot air creating currents, I found plausible but more than likely incorrect in terms of explanatory power.
I am not entirely unconvinced that it cannot work as a mechanism, but in my few experiments I was not able to get it to work. I could be doing something wrong other people did correct to make the effect work, or there could be something else involved with such a mechanism.
Either way, I can recreate the effect (spinning a pinwheel under glass) currently by other means.
------------------
"that guy lives in a very small universe. he just doesn't get it. What is "it" you ask? well, there are many way to look at it. One way would be to say, we live in such a huge universe, how could anyone say anything is impossible. he lives in a world of "can't, no, too hard, impossible, and i'm sure his life is a mirror of such. my suggestion would be is not to go to his site and view it, simlpy just to not give him the traffic, and also as to not pollute your subconcious mind."
What a wonderous way to dismiss evidence
Maybe you live in the small universe and he lives in the big one?
"I'm not going to deny certain things; All of the videos can be faked online."
Faked how? My videos are not fake. That's my hand, and real objects are moving. How they are moving is at question and is where the illusion, misdirection, decption, and trickery comes into play. Or maybe they are genuine???
"I have a quick question for you Kief:
Do you believe in Psychokinesis at all?"
I do not believe in anything at all. Beliefs are dangrous things. Watch the movie Dogma, you'll understand.
I'll rephrase your question because I know what you meant:
Have I witnessed psychokinesis without it being a trick, deception, or illusion? Positively absolutely. Would I be here if I hadn't?
"If, indeed, someone could move an object with their minds, other than the Psiwheel... Why, infact, is performing PK on a Psiwheel not PK?"
Because natural air flow around a room can make a psi wheel move. Breath, blowing, moving your hands or fingers just a little bit. All these things can affect a pinwheel in adverse ways that look paranormal but are really not.
"I have personally moved pencils before, and I have also practiced with a Psiwheel. So, the happenings with the Pencil are PK, and the Psiwheel are not? I'd just like to know your opinion on that."
Depends. If you are honestly moving psiwheels under glass then I'd be more inclined to think it was PK. If the pinwheel is not under an impermeable medium, then no, it is not PK, especially considering all the outside factors involved that can influence results and trick you.
Mind you, I made a video that shows a moving pinwheel under glass.
Am I using PK? You decide
-----------------------------------
"He's never going to directly address the 'moving the psiwheel across the room under a glass' issue."
I already did, it's not PK, and never was. You are deluded and are tricking yourself into thinking there is something more there than there actually is. The wheel moved sure, but not by anything paranormal. Get real.
"He told us he was doing a show again, so he put the link in IRC.
About 10 people started watching, and he moved the camera around until everybody was satisfied that he wasn't faking it."
So what? A bunch of believers saying they believe something only proves how much of a cult mentality you possess.
It is not hard to fake a video, I did it in 2 seconds
"He then sat the camera down so you could see both under the table, and a bit above it, thus showing us anything below the table to fake his TK"
Yea and I can do the same thing and did some of those same things with my demonstrations. That's the whole point of illusion - misdirection. He'll show you under the table and around the room for the gag, but really the gag is something you will never see or catch.
"He then sat across the room (15 feet away), and after 10 seconds, moved the wheel."
And I can do the same thing. It's all misdirection.
"Now, I'd like you to pick this apart, and tell me how he'd fake it."
Any kind of device can be situated near the pinwheel, like a little piece of wire or such, so that when the glass covering is placed over it, it gives the appearance of being covered when it infact is no and just slightly raised at a part.
Any small kind of wind will move the pinwheel then. In fact the smaller the gust of wind, the better and more smoothly the pinwheel moves.
"But you're not going to.
Why? Because you forgot the most important rule: back up your claims, which I haven't seen you do at all. Not one single bit of solid evidence."
Sure sure sure, whatever you say. You are just like the cultists when presented with proof of evolution and the big bang, who still dishonestly claim that "evidence has not been presented", or "claims haven't been backed up and proven". Keep dreaming.
-----------------------
"I just did a few tests with tinfoil on my desk.
I had 4 cups with hot water placed beside it, but it didn't move.
I tried holding a flame of my lighter next to it, it didn't move.
I tried a burning sigarette, didn't move again.
I tried it with TK from a distance of 1 meter, it moved any way I wanted
What does this mean? TK is real, and heat doesn't move a tinfoil on a desk.
Air currents _can_ move it but there was no air moving it ( no fan, window closed, it was laying still untill I did TK )"
Did you actually do the tests, or do them right? No.
The previous videos shown in this topic prove you are wrong, and your methods of conducting the test were not sound.
My videos show the effect without using any heat.
I could move a pinwheel from any distance too. It's not hard, but its not TK.
==================
"explain how someone would be able to do tk in space. There is no air at all so there are no air currents."
Of course there is air, if you are in a space shuttle or other living compartment. Out in space?... Well, if you can really do it...

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:35 pm

### randywm

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 510

Kief, I can understand where you are coming from. You obviously are a very curious person. What i meant by trying it out was actually training for a little bit with TK. I believe TK can be done becuase i saw someone right in front of my eyes move a pencil. Not a trick pencil, I was the one that handed it to him when he wanted to move something. We never said videos were proof of skill, we never said anything was proof of anything. The videos are compelling because there is the possiblility that the person is telling the truth. Its all about the what if. I know you strongly dont believe in it. Hell i didnt believe until that day when the person made my pencil move all over the place.
But just imagine if you can move objects with your mind. Would that compell you practice it? If you were shown a demonstration in a lab under the conditions you prefer then would you believe in it? As i see it this arguement will never end between Psions and Skeptics. Skeptics will keep using the "Show use proof or it doesnt exist" and Psions will keep the "Prove to us that it doesnt exist" argument. I believe if we dont bother you, you should respect our choices and dont bother us.

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:44 pm

### randywm

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 510

Kief can you answer my post please.

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:48 pm

### Kief

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 120

"Kief, I can understand where you are coming from. You obviously are a very curious person."
Curious?..... I have seen shit that would turn you white and make you never want to touch this occult stuff again.
"What i meant by trying it out was actually training for a little bit with TK."
It doesn't work like that for me. If you did have such an ability though I bet I could take it from you and then use it.
I have to be in the right mood and frame of mind to make the magick happen, and I also have to work with reality on this as well. Training is just trying to force miracles to happen. I rather let the miracles happen when I need it.
"We never said videos were proof of skill, we never said anything was proof of anything. "
Some people have
"The videos are compelling because there is the possiblility that the person is telling the truth. "
And I am trying to show you that despite how a person may be honest and trying to tell the truth, that they are even tricking themselves into thinking there is something paranormal to natural phenomena.
"Its all about the what if. I know you strongly dont believe in it."
I don't believe in anything, beliefs are entirely unneeded and illogical things to have.
"But just imagine if you can move objects with your mind. Would that compell you practice it?"
I've done it. It's more random and difficult of an ability for it to be actually useful. I focus on reading people and knowing what's to happen ahead of time. Makes poker realllllllllllly easy.
"If you were shown a demonstration in a lab under the conditions you prefer then would you believe in it?"
I'd try and publish papers on it! Are you kidding!? Yes I want a Nobel Prize, doesn't everyone?
"As i see it this arguement will never end between Psions and Skeptics."
I am truly neither.

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:57 pm

### randywm

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 510

I get your point. You know that TK exists, yet you dont believe the people that can train it to work for them. You see it as a random form of chance, that only works when you need it. Why cant it be trained. If it only worked when we needed it, then nobody would have any success. They would blankly stare at that lowly pencil, and nothing would happen, since it only works when the person needs it. Why are you trying to disprove something you know to be very real?

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Posted on Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:00 pm

### Apollo

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1589

just ignore him now. He will stop eventually

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Posted on Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:36 pm

### genjo

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 222

Apollo wrote:

Rahmid wrote:
I'd like to see him try to explain y i can get it to spin with out anything. closest hand just laying on my thigh or somthing.....ppl are stupid. Rahmid

I want to see him explain to me how i use heat to move a hole puncher...

one word explanation: Jedi.
personally i think fuss shouldn't be made over this, its just as bad as religion. one religion has contrasted beleifs to another, war is made.
but to skeptics, if you haven't got anything good to say just dont say it at all.
to each his own.

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Posted on Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:50 pm

### token

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 90

Take Apollo's advice: stop trying to argue with him. If you guys didn't get it by now, Kief isn't going to be convinced until someone throws a car at him (under lab conditions of course ) with PK. And Kief, since you're obviously mature (since you're older than us because as we all know, maturity comes directly with age ), be the bigger man and stop arguing with people that aren't and won't be convinced.

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Posted on Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:58 pm

### mattz1010

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 885

Is there even a point to argue with one who such cannot accept that he is wrong and uses such hypocritical means to justify his ends?
No, not really.
But, thanks for trying.
Apparently he's 'so mature' as to not use personal attacks...I can really see that.

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Posted on Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:28 am

### bringdownthesystem

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 20

KEIF........
When you think about it in the end...we are all curious. People might be afraid of the unknown, but they are curious enough to walk into it, just for the sake of seeing. We can be skeptical about anything, I can say that the sky is fake, not even there, of course its been "proven" its there. I could say people can not go to outer space, you everyone else would say they can. Where is the proof? On T.V. and video footage...right? Oh and on some papers of diffrent people saying they saw it on T.V. ...... is that proof? Then we have psionics, I say its true, what backs it up? My own knowledge of what I've seen at my own house, the 1,367 on this forum that had the interest, some of which I have seen are very skilled, and others are moving up. I back that with videos, and what everyone says, and what my mind tells me. We are all wantng truth, and to learn, we all know this, and are helping each other through this, we are seeing as we go. Almost everyone here has tried this out, and it worked, then they moved to bigger things. For the sake of research it does none of us any good to fake a video. Of course its not meant to prove, but its the best proof we have, besides self observation, so I say I analyse the videos, see if it seems credible, then I believe it till I hear otherwise. Sure I might have been a little skeptical at first, but not so anymore. I think if you could open your eyes and mind a bit more, and just take in possibility....yes, possibility that anything is possible, and that maybe this really can happen. What would it hurt to try to believe for a bit, try it out, many ways and see if it works for you. You know great, you can fake a video, now go try it for real. I'm not trying to be too offensive either, but if you want to throw these stones, you might want to try getting hit by a few first, so you know what it feels like, what you're really saying. From your other posts, it also seems that you believe in some paranormal things, why not then this? I just don't understand much of you're ways.

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