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I'm skeptic: Why all the hate?
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Posted on Fri May 26, 2006 1:32 pm

### sgtpsion

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 425

Lightbringer, you bring up some valid points, and I agree with you. Unfortunately, not all of the users on PsiPog are like you, me and Roy. Some are really dumb (Kief comes to mind with his whole "happy 4/20" thread in the PK forum...) and will advocate drug use. Others are fanatical, and will force their religion down others' throats.
Neither of these is what we want, as you know.
If everyone just got a freaking brain, and acted with thought, consideration and some sense (like me, you and Roy do), then your suggestions would work brilliantly and help a lot. But unfortunately, we can't do that right now. Hopefully sometime later, just not now.

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Posted on Fri May 26, 2006 2:53 pm

### Roy

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 416

Lightbringer wrote:

And when would we be in a position to discriminate between what is hocus pocus and what is truly metaphysical knowledge? Why wouldn't some of us already be able to do just that? You seem to believe in something stopping us from reaching that point, but you haven't outlined what that limitation is.

Yes, there is something that is stopping us from understanding this: religious tradition and fluffy new age beliefs that try to mystify what we do in terms of angels, gods and goddesses, demons, deities, and etc. It all goes back to cutting out the fat.
You seem to be missing the whole point of the no religion rule: it makes people accountable for their experiences and abilities. Nothing can be attributed to a metaphysical being created by a religion. This makes it, in some sense, empirical and therefore closer to scientific.

Lightbringer wrote:

Psipog trusts it's member to a certain extent. Allowing some subjects but limiting exposure to others is not complete trust though. Again, I want to mention that I'm not saying this site is a waste of time because of these limitations, and I appreciate the work that goes into the site, but it's potential is limited by not allowing certain subjects. The progress you speak of is again limited though. Without much exposure to the more controversial aspects of metaphysics, the members only get the chance to become mildly experienced before their development is no longer possible, at least through this site. As your said yourself, many of the "advanced techniques" are of questionable quality and most of the posts in the forums are tackling very basic questions. These basic exercises, like the use of a psi wheel, are useful but when people are using with them for years, something is obviously missing. At this point, such an "exercise" is simply a parlor trick because it does not teach the psion anything new (or a challenge). It's just a toy, something to play around with. Yes, there are some tales of amazing abilities which I don't doubt the validity of, but how common are they? Are we just going to re-tell the old stories of a select few or do we want to create new stories and learn from those extraordinary experiences?

Limiting exposure to some of the more controversial subjects in psionics is not a matter of trust in this case, it's a matter of liability. You talk about drugs, and in all likelihood someone will become inspired to try some. All it takes is one parent to discover their tweaking kid, and for that kid to cite Psipog as their inspiration for drug use, and then BAM! Total shitstorm for the website. We don't need a PAPSIPOG (Parents Against Psipog) type of thing happening. In essence, your call for a no-holds-barred exchange of information about illegal drug use and psionics can have the opposite effect of what you desire, which in this case is an uninhibited, anything-goes discussion.
Tales of great psionicism are rare because there are rarely any great psions, and again I'll repeat myself: I'm unaware of any of these people who depend on drugs or religion to perform these feats. These same people, by the way, started with "parlor tricks". They advanced through diligent practice. You learn how to move a psiwheel, eventually you're learn to apply it to other objects. That's how it solidifies as a real ability that has sprung froth from a supposed trick. The same applies for non-psychokinetic abilities.

Lightbringer wrote:

What's missing is a deeper understanding of psionics which can only be gained through discussion and application of all the metaphysical knowledge at our disposal. I'm not saying "Do some crack kids, it'll make you a better psion!" but there are accounts of how drugs affect one's abilities (because believe it or not, some people do drugs regardless of whether or not psipog condemns discussion of it). By comparing those effects to the way such drugs affect your perception, it can give insight into how psionic abilities are affected by perception, certain mindsets, etc. Tell me such knowledge is not useful.
However, what is just as essential is how obvious it becomes that drugs DON'T help psionics and can hinder abilities. By quieting all discussion about it, you create mystery and misunderstandings around it and, voila, you've created the problem you were trying to avert. It's proven that parents who talk to their kids about why they shouldn't do drugs as opposed to just saying it's forbidden get through to their kids far more easily. Thus, even if you do not advocate the use of drugs for psionic enhancement or the acquisition of knowledge, it is more useful to allow discussion on the subject.

It doesn't take a large leap of intelligence to understand why the "no drugs" rule is in effect, but I'll hold your hand and go over it with you.
1) Psipog's mission statement is to strip away the unessential factors and mysticism that surrounds psychic functioning.
2) Psipog has rules against discussion of drugs and religion.
3) Therefore, Psipog has deemed drugs and religion as unecessary.
Don't accuse Psipog of being hypocritical in this regard.

Lightbringer wrote:
As for religion, I won't say "religion is a drug" (Marxist as I may be Razz), but many of the same points apply. By discussing dogma (rather than forcing it down other people's throats), mystical teachings and knowledge held within almost every world religion, the members gain two things: The loss of mystique and misunderstanding about religions (and so gain a more effective critiquing ability) and access to another banquet of knowledge that will better held their understanding of metaphysics.

If you open the floodgates for religious discussion, then you do allow people get up on their soapbox and scream their dogma. You want a loss of mystique surroudning psychic functioning? Hold psionics in a scientific esteem, and last time I checked, that's what Psipog does. Furthermore, religious discussion turns into religious debate. Religious debate turns into religious arguments, and so on and so forth until tempers flare and the moderators have to step in. I'm sure if this were the case, you'd still be using the freedom/liberty analogy as your battle cry to stir the masses against an oppressive Psipog moderation staff.
In this sense, Psipog is always in a lose-lose situation. You can't tailor this site to everyone's needs and wants. Instead, you lay down ground rules that are consistent with your mission statement and you enforce them.
I reiterate yet again, Psipog is a website that mainly caters to new psions. It stays with tried, true, and basic techniques. You go beyond this, and you run into unecessary problems that will only inhibit progress.

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Posted on Fri May 26, 2006 11:02 pm

### Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

Lightbringer...
When I created PsiPog, and when I continue to re-invent PsiPog, I have to make decisions. It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to make decisions that please everyone, and make everyone happy. I'm sorry, that's just how it goes.
So when I design rules, I start with ideals. What do I want to create? What distinctions do I want to make? What holes do I see in the way psychic abilities are currently being taught, and how can I create an organization that doesn't fall prey to those same holes? How can I create something unique that provides people with a different perspective on reality? These are the questions I ask myself.
A good way to get your mind pumping is to first start complaining (seriously). What complaints do I have about all the other psychic communities I've been to? I can sit here and list hundreds of complaints. For example, a lot of communities have these 16 year old "philosophers" who saw the movie The Matrix, and suddenly think they're enlightened about how reality works. Or they had one psychic experience when they were younger (which of course, changes every time they tell the story, so that they sound more amazing each time), which must mean that they have all this secret knowledge that I'm not worthy enough to listen to.
That's bullshit.
So, that's a few of the complaints I hold in my mind while creating ideals. Where does this lead me? The next question I ask myself is: why do these things bother me? What can I do to prevent this from happening? More importantly, what should we focus our attention on that will also serve to avoid these annoyances? I've learned that it's silly to build a system around avoiding bad things. Instead, it's better to focus on good things.
So what good things can I focus on that will have a side effect of avoiding all these annoying qualities of other communities?
That's when my mind starts to kick in. What ideals should there be? Well, one ideal that seems to be lacking in all other psychic communities, is a strong emphasis on personal experience. If we focus on personal experience, this cuts out a lot of garbage. Suddenly, all these 16 year old philosophers are stripped of their authority. They bring close to zero personal experience to the table, which puts them in the category of "those are great ideas, but get back to me when you actually DO something with them".
That feels better. What other benefits do we get by focusing on personal experience? Suddenly, all these people who love to preach about their religious ideas on how psionics "must" work (according to their religion), have zero authority as well. Do they have personal experience that supports their ideas? Usually, no. Usually they just regurgitate passages from some book they read. That's fine and dandy, but until you get some PERSONAL EXPERIENCE to back up those ideas, I'm not really interested in them.
If I light candles and prance around naked, a goddess will do my bidding? Alright... what personal experience do you have to back that up? "I have lit candles, pranced around naked, and got results!" That's great! But where in your personal experience did you witness a goddess that floated around doing your bidding? Nowhere.
Now things are starting to line up.
Now we can start to ask more intelligent questions. Like, "maybe something else is happening, and a goddess really isn't doing your bidding?" That seems like a wonderful question. By focusing on personal experience, we are quickly presented with this question. By contrast, if we were focused on religion, we would quickly become distracted. We would get into arguments over what book says what, who the authors are, when the books were written, what specific beliefs each individual has about goddesses, etc etc.
By focusing on personal experience, we start asking different questions. Instead of debating about which author wrote which book, and who has what authority, we instead ask the question of "do we really have the evidence to support this idea?" A lot of times the answer is, "No, we don't have the evidence." And suddenly a huge section of fat is severed from our minds (and as Roy has said, we are forced to deal with the meat of the situation).
So I love this idea of focusing on personal experience. It really makes PsiPog unique, scientific, and also allows a lot of freedom at the same time.
I could go on for pages on all the benefits of focusing on personal experience, and give example after example of when it served me well. As a result of this ideal, we don't allow religious discussion. This is because talking about religion almost always blatently removes focus from personal experience. Instead of talking about what we've experienced, we start talking about what we believe, and what we've been brought up to believe, and what books tell us, and which book is correct, and which interpretation is correct, etc. And all of the sudden, one of the primary focuses and ideals of PsiPog is lost.
So, this is a much longer explaination of how this rule has been created. It is something very fundamental to the image of PsiPog. While I understand your perspective, a decision MUST be made. PsiPog chooses to focus on personal experience.
~Sean

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Posted on Sat May 27, 2006 12:28 am

### Lightbringer

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 293

Roy: I really have no need to continue the discussion when you take on a condescending tone. I've had the decency to be respectful of the staff and state my appreciation for the job they do even while I showed my own quarrels with the policies, I thought you would be able to do the same. Also, all my points have already been brought forth (well, all the non-abstract, non-guruesque points as I do have a few of those too ), so it's up to you to do with them what you will (though I doubt you will do much but shrug them off).
Peebrain: It's nice to have a level-headed, detailed response and to find out what the actual thinking behind the rules is. Of course I'm never going to agree with you (), but I can see things from your point of view.

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Posted on Sat May 27, 2006 2:41 am

### Roy

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 416

Lightbringer wrote:

Roy: I really have no need to continue the discussion when you take on a condescending tone. I've had the decency to be respectful of the staff and state my appreciation for the job they do even while I showed my own quarrels with the policies, I thought you would be able to do the same. Also, all my points have already been brought forth (well, all the non-abstract, non-guruesque points as I do have a few of those too ), so it's up to you to do with them what you will (though I doubt you will do much but shrug them off).
Peebrain: It's nice to have a level-headed, detailed response and to find out what the actual thinking behind the rules is. Of course I'm never going to agree with you (), but I can see things from your point of view.

I have not yet begun to condescend, Lightbringer. I'm rough around the edges. This is pretty much common knowledge by now. Deal with it. Obviously, I have not shrugged off your points if I took the time and energy to respond to them. Don't project any nonchalance onto me.

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Posted on Sun May 28, 2006 1:59 am

### mattz1010

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 885

Lightbringer wrote:
And people wonder why this community consists of so many people who are barely capable of the most simple psionic tasks (no offense).

But the point of PsiPog is to give a start for newbies. There are still more advanced people, obviously, to give advice to the newbies.

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Posted on Sun May 28, 2006 3:05 pm

### Rahmid

Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 739

I can understand the whole religion being integrated into the forums, for some people it's a huge part of how they do psionics. That belief isn't condemned. No freedom is being consticted, everyone has the choice to go to a different forum if they wanted, and even still be apart of this community. I go to a forum that allows religon AND this one. It's all good. There wouldn't be a point of going to a open-religion category. The pourpose of having this rule is to stop flames and the such, which happen alot as it is, and this stops the possiblities from even happening.
As for the drug rule, that is a must. Has to be in use. Advocating drugs is not only the rules for this forum, in some countries it is plain illegal. Nothing really more to say about that.
Rahmid

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Posted on Mon May 29, 2006 7:45 pm

### caligo

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 6

I can see where lightbringer is coming from. Bringing religion into the argument can contribute greatly about the understanding of psionics. Most religions are actually based on historical figures performing miracles that maybe psionic in nature. However I also can understand the rational behind the rules. As soon as religion is brought as a topic into the forums things will quickly spiral out of control. Although it is possible to view lets say Jesus as simply a great psion from the past, and simply try to figure out how he got to be so good at it, discussion will quickly spiral into a flame war between different religious groups. Even though rigorous and usefull discussion of themes present in religion is usefull it is simply threading on thin ice and is not a good topic for an open forum.
The same thing goes for the use of drugs. Most of those tend to be of illegal nature and due to the large readership of kids, the topic is inapropriate. Furthermore, drug related treads can also easily degenerate into topics such as the use of drugs for enhancement of psionic abilities or "expanding your consciousness", etc. On the other hand Lightbringer's point is valid that many people do drugs anyway and that perhaps something can be learned from their experiences. But again, this is threading on thin ice and the general populace of this forum is unlikely to be able to handle it in a mature manner. The rules of the forum are probably well suited for its purposes.
-Caligo

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Posted on Tue May 30, 2006 9:13 pm

### mattz1010

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 885

See, Caligo's got the jist of it
Couldn't have explained it better myself.

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Posted on Tue May 30, 2006 10:55 pm

### sgtpsion

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 425

Caligo, you're fucking brilliant. You explained it as well, if not better than, I could.
As I was reading Caligo's post, something dawned on me. They talk about a "god region" in the brain, which is stimulated by religion and some drugs. Stimulation produces a powerful religious/supernatural experience. Perhaps this region is stimulated during the practicing of Psi? People use drugs and religion to enhance/motivate themselves (I use religion, but drugs are bad!), so would this area of the brain be Psi-useful?

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Posted on Wed May 31, 2006 6:33 pm

### mattz1010

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 885

I'm not sure, it sounds like circular logic to me.

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Posted on Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:00 pm

### TheTelepath

Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 151

Their are arguements in this world that have been occuring since the beginning of time. Pheonomina on the internet and in this world that will keep on occuring over and over again in the smae fashion. The same arguements will be said, and the same conclusions will be came too. Due to human nature and our genes inabliity to pass on knowledge this is unavoidable, and at the same time good in certain instances for learning is one of the things life is about.
But sometime these repeated arguements with the same points said over and over again will lead to NOWHERE AT ALL
Thus to prevent such boring, counterproductive, time wasting, and idiotic things some topics are banned that will anchor them.
As far as psychic combat goes it is probably banned because of this reason and the fact that I'm sure the mods are powerful psychics. Being powerful psychics, they know just how easy it is to do damage to another person with your mind. Who knows what type of damage to themselves and other people will be caused oncethey learn these techniques and are eager to apply them. They cannot judge the morality of every single person here so they simply ban it for some other internet community to attack.
This of course can be combined with other reasons against it.

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Posted on Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:12 pm

### TheTelepath

Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 151

Lightbringer wrote:

Trading freedom for security...anyone else reminded of "V for Vendetta"? What is demonstrated in that movie is exactly the mental stunting that's being encouraging by refusing to speak on the topics of religion and drugs. Foreign substances' effects on the human mind and body are undeniable, and so undoubtably affect one's ability to manipulate psi. Belief is a HUGE part of psionics, and is also deeply connected with religion. Religious books are also small fortunes of metaphysical knowledge. Yet, they are not allowed to be talked about.
And people wonder why this community consists of so many people who are barely capable of the most simple psionic tasks (no offense). They've only been allowed to find out about and discuss certain pieces of the puzzle. We need to be able to question it all to be able to solve the puzzle and truly understand psionics. Without trust in the maturity of the members, any progress made will be so infinitesimally small, it might as well not happen.

Although it is a very contriversial issue of the whole freedom vs control issue of forum modship and rules (an arguement i have been having since the beginning of the fucking internet, so excuse me if I dont address it).
What I want to attack about your post is the one line underlined. All forusm talking about religion or not is gonna have people who can't do anhyting and sit around being a kn3wb all day because they can't commit themselves to training or have negative beliefs. It is the 80 20 rule. 80% of the people will be low to normal posters will mild abilites and 20% will be power and post enlightning things. My years of going from forum to fourm and living life affirms this. That's just the way it is.
You can never get rid of that 80%, you can only create rules and standardize ideas so to keep them in check. Thus modding never solves the problem it just keeps the control. Same thing with the police nad crime. Crime will never end but the police sure can control it.
Furthermore psionics is justa gift we are born with, and depend completely on us. If you were speaking of a technique in which we use the powers of a diety then you would be right. But when it comes to psionics they usually can be learned and mastered without the religion doctrines. In fact, techniques overlap each other from religion to religion of them saying the same thing. Psionics is a skill just like any other that can be learned and mastered easily without religion. but because of the nature of these techniques when they were created of course they were deep rooted in religion. But tha does mean we need to train them.
I agree with your later posts about how these rule limit to a certain extent. But instead of thinking of psipog not trusting it's members think of this way. Everything has its pros and cons. Not allowing religion and psi combat has its pros and conts and allows religion and psi combat hs its pros and cons. That is just how things are in life. So the question becomes what decision best suits the purpose of this site?
To answre that questoin consider this:
*This site is aimed at the scientific nature of psionics not the religious. At the same time it does not state any thoughts of believing or disbeliving in such.
*This site main theme is using YOUR own experiences as reference point to weed out the bullsiht.
This point too, has its weaknesses and it's strengths. The weaknesses being that getting informatino from other references can save one time of self-discovery. But the + of this goal outweights the later I believe because this is something not often done. To many simply read a book or a site and accept it as true without trying it. A whole community can try a technique, be doing it wrong, and wonder why it doesn't then. Then a select few will lie about it and say the did it while with furhter probing their deceit becomes obvious.
*Psipog wants to avoid superficial arguements about religion because they detour from the goals of psi pog.
Thus psipog chooses not to allow religious discussions. Not because they don't trust the users. Not because they that religion is foolish. But to further put emphasis on the goal of this site. Sure that stance has it's weaknesses, but in this case it does not matter for those weaknesses are not within the scope of this site. Their are countless other forum communities that supplement tihs other knowledge so that weakness isn't relaly that big a deal in the first place.

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Posted on Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:43 pm

### Dbizket

Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 85

Quote:
Psipog trims the fat, aka religion, drug use, and etc. What is left is the meat of psionics

That explains the dull taste. The fat of the meat always has the most flavor!

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Posted on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:46 am

### randywm

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 510

I like Psipogs way of not allowing religion and some topics. It protects the newbies from getting hurt. Like phasing, your told that you shouldnt try phasing because it hurts. If it hurts then I dont think someone thats new to psionics to mess with something that is possibly dangerous and deadly. Psipog doesnt stop the more advanced from practicing anything they choose. Its all about protecting the little guys. ; )

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