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May 25th, 2009 by Sean Do Dogs Have Souls?

I’m (still) grappling with the concept of consciousness. Not just for fun (even though it is fun), but to conjure up methods for investigating OBEs.

There are some obvious questions about the idea of a “soul” and life after death. The largest evidence against the soul is that we can alter consciousness by altering the brain. An amazing demonstration of that is in experiments with people who have a severed corpus callosum, which is the part of the brain that connects the left hemisphere with the right hemisphere. In this video, a man without hemisphere communication has the word “phone” flashed to his left eye (which gets processed by his right hemisphere), and doesn’t know the actual word until he draws a phone on a piece of paper, and recognizes the picture on the paper.

We can do our own experiment. Drink a twelve pack of beer, and tell me if your consciousness is altered :-).

If consciousness exists as an entity separate from the body, we would expect it to be unaffected by physical and chemical fluctuations in the brain. However, if consciousness arises from the complex neural network in the brain, then we would expect consciousness to be altered by physical and chemical intrusions. The evidence shows that altering the brain alters consciousness. So the conclusion is that consciousness arises from the neural network… the soul doesn’t exist.

If consciousness can exist outside the body, then we are forced to confront the question: why does altering the brain alter consciousness?

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I was debating with my friend about the difference between the human mind, and the bird mind. He argued that our human mind was better in some way… that we were doing something different that made us more intelligent, or more conscious, or self-aware. I argued that our minds were equivalent - the only difference being the number of neurons. More neurons, more processing power.

Do dogs have souls? How different are we really from any other animal? And where do you draw the line — chimps? Fish? Insects? Cells? Atoms?

If consciousness exists outside the body, then aren’t atoms capable of consciousness, even though they may not be able to exercise their awareness in the physical world?

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Is it one or the other? Is there no middle path?

This entry was posted on Monday, May 25th, 2009 at 6:04 pm and is filed under Consciousness. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

### 15 Responses to “Do Dogs Have Souls?”

1. floslib Says:
   May 25th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

   It appears that chemicals alter consciousness, and it also appears that it’s possible to separate consciousness from the body via OBEs. Now, assuming altered states don’t simply make it appear consciousness leaves the body, then we have to resolve the paradox you brought up above.

   My interpretation of the way this would work is pretty simple: the brain is our interface to access consciousness. Basically, consciousness exists separate from the physical body, but our brain in some way allows us to communicate and connect with it. So, when we alter the way our brain works, we alter the way we communicate with our consciousness… or the consciousness if you subscribe to the idea that we’re all one.

2. zipper77 Says:
   May 25th, 2009 at 9:50 pm

   Perhaps the body is a means by which consciousness perceives reality?

   The body is the way that the soul perceives everything.

   I almost see the body as a little robo-suit. The soul goes inside and interacts with the world through it, meaning the body is just a shell.

3. Mars Says:
   May 26th, 2009 at 3:02 am

   If consciousness can exist outside the body, then we are forced to confront the question: why does altering the brain alter consciousness?

   I would say it’s because the consciousness is inside the body therefore it is limited to the body. Since the body (more specifically the brain) can be altered by chemicals and other junk and since the consciousness is limited to the body then you can alter consciousness, but this of course only applies to when the consciousness is inside the body. When it leaves (OBE/astral projection) then the consciousness is not limited anymore. People who have had OBE’s claim to have seen new colors, heard new sounds, met spirits, etc. so to me this makes sense.

4. Mr. Tallyman Says:
   May 26th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

   You are aware that liquor is sometimes called ’spirits’? haha.. but, perhaps you are right in thinking that these atoms and substances have characteristics of their own, and the physical world is more sacred than we thought..

   notice how your level of consciousness is quite vivid whilst thee is sober? or wakeful? and not so much when you are dreaming, or drunk.. or dreaming about being drunk..

   perhaps the soul body connection is that which is the best for experience..

   ‘we all wanna go to heaven.. (sorry.. its a lyric..) but we dont wanna go right now’

   Also, I had a dog one time who hated squirt guns, stick guns, also just plain ol pointed fingers..

   me thinks he was a gunslinger from the past, who done some bad shit, and was spending some time doin karma as a silly ol poochie.

   Christians dont believe in dog heaven.. and thats why the world is so fucked up right now.

5. Alexander Says:
   May 26th, 2009 at 9:19 pm

   Personally, I’ve always thought of consciousness/the soul as some sort of psychic energy field (or something like that) created & maintained by the neurons in the brain. This would explain why the “soul,” which cannot be explained by science and appears to act other-worldly at times, is bound to & dependent on a physical object.

   This would also explain/allow for free will, since the field could be said to be capable of manipulating quantum probability (to a limited degree), thus allowing us control over our brain’s neurological functions.

   And this *does* actually seem feasable, too. If I remember correctly, Michio Kaku (fameous sciencey guy) once said that the human brain is “the most complex object in this quadrant of the galaxy.” So, ya never know…

6. Mr. Tallyman Says:
   May 27th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

   “the human brain is the most complex object in this quadrant of the galaxy..” - Alexander

   have you seen the picture of the universal superstructure compared to the human brain nural clusters?

   Have a look at a video I posted in the ‘weird video’ discussion section here, called “a trip through the holographic universe” and at the end, it will show you what I am talking about.

   Its pretty heavy..

7. mrj Says:
   May 28th, 2009 at 1:12 am

   It seems pretty ironic to me that another large bit of evidence against the soul is memory loss, yet people claim to “remember” their past lives. Could the soul have its own memory bank?

   Maybe we’ve been asleep this whole time and we never could have known. But we wake up when we do OBEs. Or when we die. (according to some experiences). That may also be why so many OBEs are remembered very vividly too.

8. Mr. Tallyman Says:
   May 28th, 2009 at 4:23 am

   Also, I think it is important to understand animals..

   they have no language, therefore, no super ego..

   yet, they communicate using the most basic, subtle, gestures.. which are all relative to all living beings..

   so.. is it a dog? or is it a god? (I know, I know, many of you are miffed. But open your mind up like a christmas gift

9. Giroman Says:
   May 31st, 2009 at 8:23 am

   When you pour water over a radio, or drop your cell phone - it no longer works correctly…or the person talking through the device starts sounding weird. From that, one could deduce that the electronics within the radio are the source of the ‘voice’.

10. AngelsFall Says:
    May 31st, 2009 at 9:00 pm

    Giroman, I’m just letting you know that I am writing that post down and keeping it someplace where I can see it, because that’s brilliant.

11. deusxmachina Says:
    June 3rd, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    I think consciousness arises from the ability to observe something without any apparent “observer” and therefore influence otherwise totally random events, starting at the subatomic level, and working its way up to us humans via emergence.

    If particles have free will, so do humans:

    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/35391/title/Math_Trek__Do_subatomic_particles_have_free_will%3F

    I personally really like Phillip Pullman’s concept of Dust in the His Dark Materials series. The idea that there is almost a “carrier-particle” of consciousness that arises whenever a probabilistic event occurs on the quantum level. These coalesce as complexity increases. All things would then have a certain amount of consciousness in them.

    Which is more or less the belief in eastern philosophy, a universal consciousness.

    It also means that an AI would in fact be conscious. Hopefully their karma will prevent a technological singularity leading to global robot takeover 0.o

12. taoseeker Says:
    June 22nd, 2009 at 5:09 am

    “If consciousness exists as an entity separate from the body, we would expect it to be unaffected by physical and chemical fluctuations in the brain.”
    I wonder whether we can regard consciousness much like a signal from a radio or tv station. Its always on but the brain is the actual tv or radio, so if the radio is on the blink (read your drunk) the signal is not received as clearly and we are not as conscious as we normally are. I am of the opinion that the brain is crucial as a receiver of consciousness but is not the source of the same.

13. illiterate hippie Says:
    July 10th, 2009 at 4:22 am

    How do we know the soul does or doesn’t exist? If the mind (consciousness) is merely a property of the brain, is it not far-fetched to say the soul is a property of the body and mind?

    “…Body am I entirely, and nothing more; and soul is only the name of something in the body.”

14. shantoruk Says:
    July 30th, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    When you pour water over a radio, or drop your cell phone - it no longer works correctly…or the person talking through the device starts sounding weird. From that, one could deduce that the electronics within the radio are the source of the ‘voice’.

    I see what you’re saying. But if I’d spent my whole life locked in a cell with a radio and never met another real person, that might be a reasonable assumption.

    I know that cellphones only relay messages between people because (1) that’s how they’re marketed (2) I also speak to the same people in real life (and they remember things from our cellphone conversations) (3) I haven’t yet come across any AI that can simulate a human voice convincingly, let alone fake a conversation.

    If I could speak to somebody without interacting in any way with their body, I would believe in souls. But I can’t. The only way I can communicate with someone is by sending sound waves to their ears, or text messages to their eyes (like I’m doing with you right now, via the internet). Since everything we attribute to the soul seems to be tied to the body (more specifically the brain) what reason is there to believe that souls exist as a separate entity?

15. shantoruk Says:
    July 30th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    BTW Sean, I think you’re partly right that it comes down to humans having more neurons, but it also matters where the extra neurons go. Different parts of the brain have different purposes, and the human brain has proportionally a bigger neocortex than any other animal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain#Structure

    I don’t know if there’s anywhere you can draw a line. Humans and dogs are just points in a continuum of intelligence. The difference between humans and dogs is probably smaller than the difference between dogs and lizards, but small physical differences can make a big difference in reality.

    Think of how much society has changed in the last thousand years. Evolution doesn’t do much on that timescale - probably the only thing that’s really improved our brains during that time is better nutrition. But if you look at something like Wikipedia, I think it’s fair to say that humans in 2009 are much more advanced/developed/powerful as a species than humans in 1009 were. And that difference is purely cultural (viewing technology as part of culture).

    And I think at the current rate of progress, we’ll look pretty wimpy compared to humans in 2019. At least, I hope so - for example, having a space elevator by then would be pretty cool

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