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Free will

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cinderwild

I wasn't around much for Psipog (and felt it was a bit redundant) and am unsure whether or not this would qualify as religious, but I think it is.
This is one of the things that we as humans have questioned for a very long time. Free will has multiple connotations and is in general very ambiguous.
For me, free will is the literal, I would go so far as to call it supernatural, ability to rationalize actions and thoughts as a living being. You may think it's simply, " Yes! We are human (after all)!" but when you bring in scientific applications, it really does muddle things up.
Forgive me if I sound too harsh, but science is the 'free will' killer as it is now. I have nothing against science, but feel that when you look at yourselves clearly through no filter other than the scientific one, we -are- machines. We have no souls, and we have no free will.
The problem with wanting to believe otherwise is that science covers everything, and it works. Science can tell you that OBEs are just hallucinations of the mind and give
'evidence' to support that (I put evidence in parenthesis as the results are taken out of context and really make a lot of assumptions. It's similar to saying that life on other planets is impossible by observing just one other planet).
I have tried, very scrutinizingly, to look at my personal beliefs from a scientific perspective, and it's definitely a daunting task. I found myself very disturbed by how readily things were the way they were without any spiritual reasoning needed, and even more so that everyone around me seemed to just accept it! Try talking to someone about how odd sexual attraction seems. You probably won't get far. Besides all that, the big problem is: IT ALL WORKS!
Now, obviously we have some sort of wiggle room. You could say my objection to what I consider lifeless is a testament to that. I've come to look at life from the perspective that both can coexist. To me, OBEs can be both hallucinations and real psychic phenomenon, for example.
Now, what about you?
I wasn't around much for Psipog (and felt it was a bit redundant) and am unsure whether or not this would qualify as religious, but I think it is. This is one of the things that we as humans have questioned for a very long time. Free will has multiple connotations and is in general very ambiguous. For me, free will is the literal, I would go so far as to call it supernatural, ability to rationalize actions and thoughts as a living being. You may think it's simply, " Yes! We are human (after all)!" but when you bring in scientific applications, it really does muddle things up. Forgive me if I sound too harsh, but science is the 'free will' killer as it is now. I have nothing against science, but feel that when you look at yourselves clearly through no filter other than the scientific one, we -are- machines. We have no souls, and we have no free will. The problem with wanting to believe otherwise is that science covers everything, and it works. Science can tell you that OBEs are just hallucinations of the mind and give 'evidence' to support that (I put evidence in parenthesis as the results are taken out of context and really make a lot of assumptions. It's similar to saying that life on other planets is impossible by observing just one other planet). I have tried, very scrutinizingly, to look at my personal beliefs from a scientific perspective, and it's definitely a daunting task. I found myself very disturbed by how readily things were the way they were without any spiritual reasoning needed, and even more so that everyone around me seemed to just accept it! Try talking to someone about how odd sexual attraction seems. You probably won't get far. Besides all that, the big problem is: IT ALL WORKS! Now, obviously we have some sort of wiggle room. You could say my objection to what I consider lifeless is a testament to that. I've come to look at life from the perspective that both can coexist. To me, OBEs can be both hallucinations and real psychic phenomenon, for example. Now, what about you?

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

Anonymous Dark

Mmm? What are you asking? Is free will really "real". Not really, when you break it down--sure, we may feel in control of our lives, but everything we do is just chemical reactions in our brains telling our bodies to do something because of some outside stimuli...and that outside stimuli is caused by something else, which is caused by something else, which is...if you look at it from a purely scientific PoV, every event in the universe, from the first second to the last star's dying breath, is predetermined. There is no free will, only a complex series of reactions that were set in motion the instant the universe was birthed...
Of course, that's the way things would be in a perfect universe where everything works logically...but our universe hardly seems logical at times, so...
Mmm? What are you asking? Is free will really "real". Not really, when you break it down--sure, we may feel in control of our lives, but everything we do is just chemical reactions in our brains telling our bodies to do something because of some outside stimuli...and that outside stimuli is caused by something else, which is caused by something else, which is...if you look at it from a purely scientific PoV, every event in the universe, from the first second to the last star's dying breath, is predetermined. There is no free will, only a complex series of reactions that were set in motion the instant the universe was birthed... Of course, that's the way things would be in a perfect universe where everything works logically...but our universe hardly seems logical at times, so...

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

cinderwild

Well, this is a discussion forum, no literal answers needed, just your thoughts and opinions. Everything you said was essentially what I was trying to get at in my post. The question is: Do you believe it?
Personally I don't see how you can just believe something like that. It's such a negation of what you experience firsthand, but everything else around you says otherwise, and even seeps into 'what you experience'. I mean, for the most part, I think most everyone feels that they have a free will, but you can analyze it and it doesn't seem so.
Well, this is a discussion forum, no literal answers needed, just your thoughts and opinions. Everything you said was essentially what I was trying to get at in my post. The question is: Do you believe it? Personally I don't see how you can just believe something like that. It's such a negation of what you experience firsthand, but everything else around you says otherwise, and even seeps into 'what you experience'. I mean, for the most part, I think most everyone feels that they have a free will, but you can analyze it and it doesn't seem so.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

SheepKing

Anonymous Dark: I can understand that reasoning :-P, I think a lot of, well, some scientists are actually attempting to create a "theory of everything", Unified Field Theory, I believe it is to be called. Where they take into account every force and can determine what would happen if they tweaked any values.
However, the problem with that seems to stem from Probability. All of these crazy nano-scale reactions that are going on everywhere in the universe are probabilistic and really on "Chance" (If you believe in such a thing)... I don't know just thought that'd be something interesting to think about.
But, as to whether or not there is "fate", I find myself having dejavu a lot. All the time I see someone and then feel as if I've seen them before, or as if maybe we've met. Like I feel we know each other from forever. I think my brain may be a little messed up or something, or it's the little threads of fate saying "Hey, I am putting you here because that's where you need to be, and you know this, and you felt this coming for a long time now."
If fate existed, I don't think it'd ever let you know that it did or didn't, for sure.
Anonymous Dark: I can understand that reasoning :-P, I think a lot of, well, some scientists are actually attempting to create a "theory of everything", Unified Field Theory, I believe it is to be called. Where they take into account every force and can determine what would happen if they tweaked any values. However, the problem with that seems to stem from Probability. All of these crazy nano-scale reactions that are going on everywhere in the universe are probabilistic and really on "Chance" (If you believe in such a thing)... I don't know just thought that'd be something interesting to think about. But, as to whether or not there is "fate", I find myself having dejavu a lot. All the time I see someone and then feel as if I've seen them before, or as if maybe we've met. Like I feel we know each other from forever. I think my brain may be a little messed up or something, or it's the little threads of fate saying "Hey, I am putting you here because that's where you need to be, and you know this, and you felt this coming for a long time now." If fate existed, I don't think it'd ever let you know that it did or didn't, for sure.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

cinderwild

So what if life was fated? Would it bother you? I feel like life is meaningless if your actions are predetermined.
So what if life was fated? Would it bother you? I feel like life is meaningless if your actions are predetermined.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

SheepKing

I guess it would be like watching a movie... Except you are in a more interactive mode of view. Maybe it's to teach you a lesson... Maybe it could be a million things.
What about the converse argument? If there is no "god" or higher power who is pulling strings, if we are alone in the universe, if we are just a biological machine. Isn't life meaningless even then? If you don't have a "place"?
If life is fated, what is after life?
In any case, I don't think I'm bothered. Fated or Not...
I guess it would be like watching a movie... Except you are in a more interactive mode of view. Maybe it's to teach you a lesson... Maybe it could be a million things. What about the converse argument? If there is no "god" or higher power who is pulling strings, if we are alone in the universe, if we are just a biological machine. Isn't life meaningless even then? If you don't have a "place"? If life is fated, what is after life? In any case, I don't think I'm bothered. Fated or Not...

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

Dash

the future is plastic,
fate is fool's gold
the only time theres such a thing as fate is when one cant control his life or actions,
and even though humans may operate like machines, there always seems to be a choice, but mostly ones against your true nature..
so if you act on instinct or habit, you will always be a machine, if you stop to think, then you might have a chance of changing your programming,
life is now,
and even though great psychics and psions may "see" the future,
its basicly they're mind showing them what "could be", never what is
life is as predetermined as chess,
even though you may have a plan, or think you see how it'll end up.. you could always be wrong/change your plan/switch to checkers :P
so.. you really make your own life,
or let it make itself
....
er.. thats all in my viewpoint anyway..
*ahem*..
the future is plastic, fate is fool's gold the only time theres such a thing as fate is when one cant control his life or actions, and even though humans may operate like machines, there always seems to be a choice, but mostly ones against your true nature.. so if you act on instinct or habit, you will always be a machine, if you stop to think, then you might have a chance of changing your programming, life is now, and even though great psychics and psions may "see" the future, its basicly they're mind showing them what "could be", never what is life is as predetermined as chess, even though you may have a plan, or think you see how it'll end up.. you could always be wrong/change your plan/switch to checkers :P so.. you really make your own life, or let it make itself .... er.. thats all in my viewpoint anyway.. *ahem*..

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

delimew

life is now,
and even though great psychics and psions may "see" the future,
its basicly they're mind showing them what "could be", never what is
while i wouldn't call myself a "great" psychic, i have seen the future many, many times before. thus i've ended up thinking a lot about the whole predetermined possibility. my theories on the matter are very confusing and hard to explain, but at the least i don't believe it to be a simple matter of seeing what "could be"
because my precognitions are so strong and accurate (right down to what i'll be thinking at the time), there's little doubt in my mind that what i see is defiantly what will be. however, i don't actually believe this to disprove free will. rather, i think it just means time doesn't work in the way people expect it to work.
(i'm sorry, i've a lot more thoughts on this matter, but i'm horrible at explaining stuff. i'm willing to try though if people want me to)
there is another angle to think about though, if i were to make a perfect clone of you, starting it of from a newborn, and controlled it's environment and experiences to fully match your own life, down to the tinyest detail, would the clone not end up making the same decisions you did?
[quote]life is now, and even though great psychics and psions may "see" the future, its basicly they're mind showing them what "could be", never what is[/quote] while i wouldn't call myself a "great" psychic, i have seen the future many, many times before. thus i've ended up thinking a lot about the whole predetermined possibility. my theories on the matter are very confusing and hard to explain, but at the least i don't believe it to be a simple matter of seeing what "could be" because my precognitions are so strong and accurate (right down to what i'll be thinking at the time), there's little doubt in my mind that what i see is defiantly what will be. however, i don't actually believe this to disprove free will. rather, i think it just means time doesn't work in the way people expect it to work. (i'm sorry, i've a lot more thoughts on this matter, but i'm horrible at explaining stuff. i'm willing to try though if people want me to) there is another angle to think about though, if i were to make a perfect clone of you, starting it of from a newborn, and controlled it's environment and experiences to fully match your own life, down to the tinyest detail, would the clone not end up making the same decisions you did?

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

Dash

well the only reason i said what i said,
was because ive created a fake future.. in my head..
and.. i know what i have to do to make it happen.. i can literally feel the next step to make it happen.. every move.. and i know what'll happen if i dont take the move,
ive created my own future..
and so far.. ive been completely right
one more great "could be" i guess..
a lot of ways to look at that though,
precognition,
intention manifestation,
idealistic fantasy,
but im always making the choice.. (or so it seems)
and i want to hear your thoughts on precognition...
ill post my email address 2 days from now, ;D
well the only reason i said what i said, was because ive created a fake future.. in my head.. and.. i know what i have to do to make it happen.. i can literally feel the next step to make it happen.. every move.. and i know what'll happen if i dont take the move, ive created my own future.. and so far.. ive been completely right one more great "could be" i guess.. a lot of ways to look at that though, precognition, intention manifestation, idealistic fantasy, but im always making the choice.. (or so it seems) and i want to hear your thoughts on precognition... ill post my email address 2 days from now, ;D

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

Dash

that brings up a new question..
"when you see the future, do you MAKE it just by believing its the future?"
... maybe we should focus on free will..
>>
that brings up a new question.. "when you see the future, do you MAKE it just by believing its the future?" ... maybe we should focus on free will.. >>

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

cinderwild

@Sheepking: Why doesn't the idea of your actions being predetermined bother you? It makes me feel as if nothing I do matters.
@Sheepking: Why doesn't the idea of your actions being predetermined bother you? It makes me feel as if nothing I do matters.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

SheepKing

Because I generally like the things I do. I like the way things are turning out. I like who I am, and how I make people close to me feel. If I'm running on a script that I don't know about, whoever chose it made a good choice.
Not only that, but I've thought long and hard about "being in control". There are many things that I am not "in control" of. The actions of other people, governments, countries, whatever... I accept that I can't control everything, even if there is a chance that I can't even control my own life.
I don't know why you would feel that predetermination would make your actions meaningless. You're another piece of the puzzle of life, at risk of sounding cheesy or what not. The fact that you where even cast for a role... Maybe that says something?
---
But do not get me wrong in all of this, I don't believe that there IS fate, only that there is a chance for it.
Because I generally like the things I do. I like the way things are turning out. I like who I am, and how I make people close to me feel. If I'm running on a script that I don't know about, whoever chose it made a good choice. Not only that, but I've thought long and hard about "being in control". There are many things that I am not "in control" of. The actions of other people, governments, countries, whatever... I accept that I can't control everything, even if there is a chance that I can't even control my own life. I don't know why you would feel that predetermination would make your actions meaningless. You're another piece of the puzzle of life, at risk of sounding cheesy or what not. The fact that you where even cast for a role... Maybe that says something? --- But do not get me wrong in all of this, I don't believe that there IS fate, only that there is a chance for it.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

cinderwild

But you wouldn't mind if it turned out that -every- single action of yours isn't your own, but more of a robotic control? I don't see the pleasure in all those good things if they aren't actually caused by your own efforts.
But you wouldn't mind if it turned out that -every- single action of yours isn't your own, but more of a robotic control? I don't see the pleasure in all those good things if they aren't actually caused by your own efforts.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

SheepKing

It's not good enough to get the good role in the play? :-P
I don't really know where you want to go with this. It just depends on your perspective.
Do you think an action that YOU perform is meaningless, if the reason you performed the action did not start with you, but sort of pushed you to do it... (which is really what happens anyway, we constantly react to all kinds of stimuli, memories, and other things that influence our every action)
Or, that something has to start within, and be completely original to your mind to be emotionally fruitful...(which, come to think of it, is impossible; Simply because everything we do has some basis in "outside" influences ((Outside of our mind)) ).
I suppose it's about ego now.
It's not good enough to get the good role in the play? :-P I don't really know where you want to go with this. It just depends on your perspective. Do you think an action that YOU perform is meaningless, if the reason you performed the action did not start with you, but sort of pushed you to do it... (which is really what happens anyway, we constantly react to all kinds of stimuli, memories, and other things that influence our every action) Or, that something has to start within, and be completely original to your mind to be emotionally fruitful...(which, come to think of it, is impossible; Simply because everything we do has some basis in "outside" influences ((Outside of our mind)) ). I suppose it's about ego now.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

Zectra

Delimew:
Iunno.. I have to comment on your statement on precognition.
I'm not trying to disagree with you, but I myself have precognition a few times a week, usually "predicting" whats going to happen in the next five minute to a couple hours. These come as almost subconcious images(like a very quick trance into a day dream-- probably lasts a second) of short blocks of small key events and the stone-cold 'knowing' that it's going to happen. These range everything from who's going to say what next to what type of attacks my sparring partner is going to throw in my Kung Fu class; and vary from a "strong feeling" to a "crystal clear" knowing what it is.
I've experimented with these predictions by going along with them, going completely against them, and just altering the actions slightly. With every case where I make a drastic of enough change, the ending outcome and a few key events prior, change as well.
So in my opinion, there is free will in it; precognition and "fate" do not lock you into a destiny; and precognition simply shows you the very most likely thing to happen next if the situation is not altered by someone(The restrictions on that someone may vary-- I'm still thinking on that, but it seems that people who the prediction is about don't seem to ever change it. To be able to, you may have to have some open sense to knowing what it is. But don't believe that. It's restricting. And it's only theory.)
Anyway, I have to get breakfast and head off to college.
I'll see you.
Delimew: Iunno.. I have to comment on your statement on precognition. I'm not trying to disagree with you, but I myself have precognition a few times a week, usually "predicting" whats going to happen in the next five minute to a couple hours. These come as almost subconcious images(like a very quick trance into a day dream-- probably lasts a second) of short blocks of small key events and the stone-cold 'knowing' that it's going to happen. These range everything from who's going to say what next to what type of attacks my sparring partner is going to throw in my Kung Fu class; and vary from a "strong feeling" to a "crystal clear" knowing what it is. I've experimented with these predictions by going along with them, going completely against them, and just altering the actions slightly. With every case where I make a drastic of enough change, the ending outcome and a few key events prior, change as well. So in my opinion, there is free will in it; precognition and "fate" do not lock you into a destiny; and precognition simply shows you the very most likely thing to happen next if the situation is not altered by someone(The restrictions on that someone may vary-- I'm still thinking on that, but it seems that people who the prediction is about don't seem to ever change it. To be able to, you may have to have some open sense to knowing what it is. But don't believe that. It's restricting. And it's only theory.) Anyway, I have to get breakfast and head off to college. I'll see you.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

cinderwild

Oh, absolutely it is about ego, but I wouldn't understand any other option. I think that if you really find truth in the statement, "It's not good enough to get the good role in the play? :-P" that you also have to come to gripes with the fact that others do NOT get the good role. What about those people? I'm not sure what role I play yet, but I honestly wouldn't like myself anymore if I was in a good role and said something like you just did. ( No offense.)
Oh, absolutely it is about ego, but I wouldn't understand any other option. I think that if you really find truth in the statement, "It's not good enough to get the good role in the play? :-P" that you also have to come to gripes with the fact that others do NOT get the good role. What about those people? I'm not sure what role I play yet, but I honestly wouldn't like myself anymore if I was in a good role and said something like you just did. ( No offense.)

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

SheepKing

Understandable Cinderwild, In the assumption that there IS fate, then other people getting the "bad" parts must have a reason. Unless fate is some system by which everyone is assigned random/meaningless roles in some strange game of life :-P.
But even then, if you do get a good role, you are simply limited to helping the people who fate has assigned you to help and what not. But, that is another part of the mentality of "letting go" you have to come to grips with. There are possibly billions of people in the world suffering at any given time. Hunger, Disease, War, Natural Disasters, self-induced suffering, and space rocks hurtling to earth... Should I sit and cry about each one?
---
But alas, this is where I start to find it harder to believe in "fate". Simply because in the assumption that something assigns you to a fate. Either purposefully or at random, then where would someone probably learn more ? (Depending on the person I suppose); With fate, or without one? So, if there is an assigner of fates, it is not for the purpose of teaching, because if you wanted to teach someone, you would probably go with free-will instead of fate.
Also to clarify, I don't think its appropriate to be upset constantly because someone out there is hurting more than you are. Acknowledge it and respect it, but you can't kick yourself in the ass because someone is doing worse than you are.
Understandable Cinderwild, In the assumption that there IS fate, then other people getting the "bad" parts must have a reason. Unless fate is some system by which everyone is assigned random/meaningless roles in some strange game of life :-P. But even then, if you do get a good role, you are simply limited to helping the people who fate has assigned you to help and what not. But, that is another part of the mentality of "letting go" you have to come to grips with. There are possibly billions of people in the world suffering at any given time. Hunger, Disease, War, Natural Disasters, self-induced suffering, and space rocks hurtling to earth... Should I sit and cry about each one? --- But alas, this is where I start to find it harder to believe in "fate". Simply because in the assumption that something assigns you to a fate. Either purposefully or at random, then where would someone probably learn more ? (Depending on the person I suppose); With fate, or without one? So, if there is an assigner of fates, it is not for the purpose of teaching, because if you wanted to teach someone, you would probably go with free-will instead of fate. Also to clarify, I don't think its appropriate to be upset constantly because someone out there is hurting more than you are. Acknowledge it and respect it, but you can't kick yourself in the ass because someone is doing worse than you are.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

cinderwild

I never intended to sound as if I was constantly worried about something like that. I think you missed my point. When I think free will I think of the description that Anonymous Dark gave. In that case, the fate you're talking about would come down to EVERY single action and EVERY single thought you have, and EVERYTHING around you that happens being predetermined. I don't see the point in that, nor do I see how someone else could. I don't understand how someone can just accept, " Okay, my actions and thoughts are robotic. " and then return to thinking from the perspective that they really are controlling their actions.
I never intended to sound as if I was constantly worried about something like that. I think you missed my point. When I think free will I think of the description that Anonymous Dark gave. In that case, the fate you're talking about would come down to EVERY single action and EVERY single thought you have, and EVERYTHING around you that happens being predetermined. I don't see the point in that, nor do I see how someone else could. I don't understand how someone can just accept, " Okay, my actions and thoughts are robotic. " and then return to thinking from the perspective that they really are controlling their actions.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

Jusseppe

This is a bit long, I hope I don't bore you if you decide to read it =0.
I believe free will is as real as it can be. We are, of course, limited by many things. Laws of physics, society, religion (if you are religious), other people's own free wills and so on. But I believe our own free will is absolute to its own extent.
I read a filosophy book some years ago that talked about this, the book was "Etica para Amador" from Fernando Zavater. It made an analogy with Troy's Hector and a thermite warrior (thermite warriors go attack invasors while the workers rebuild the hive, their deads are almost certain). It said Hector (who died protecting Troy from Aquiles) did a very worthy, honorable and brave deed, while the thermite warrior bug just did what it was programmed to do. This is because the bug is actually "biologically programmed" to do it's job (as far as we know) and humans aren't. Hector could have just as easily escaped, he could have chosen not to fight and live instead, so his actions were brave and honorable while the thermite's were just instinct and biologically predetermined.
Another thing filosophers use to prove free will, which i find very interesting, is trials penalties and sentences. What they say is: if we humans didn't have free will, people couldn't be judged and sentenced because their actions were predetermined and no one can fight fate. Their argument is: They weren't forrced to commit a crime, they could've chosen not to commit it, therefore they are punished for making the wrong decition.
Of course you could always say: "Well, if they are indeed predetermined to commit a crime, couldn't the cops and judges be predetermined to arrest them and judge them?".
Of course you could! but I think this is a tricky way of thinking. Not long ago there was a post about this, pseudo-science or dangerous thoughts they called it, i think. Pseudo-science are tricky ways of thinking that are infalible in a way they can't be proved wrong. As Sean said, many religions use this ways of thinking by saying “If you observe Christianity to be untrue, then really you’re just being fooled by the Devil, and you must believe even more in Christianity in order to overcome the Devil.”
I think it's the same with this. Someone might say: "If you believe in free will, it's just because you are predetermined to believe in free will, so you are really just a puppet either way!"
With that said, another thing that makes me think free will is real is the struggle you sometimes make when making a decision or trying to do something. Now that I have explained why "because you it's your fate to struggle man!" would be a lame answer to this, I can explain what I think about this very briefly.
I think if you were predetermined to do something it wouldn't be so hard to do some things. Asking someone out, for example, I think everyone has struggled with this one. It's really scary (for me at least =p) and I have to struggle with it, and really hard too! Until finally one part of me or the other wins.
This is a bit long, I hope I don't bore you if you decide to read it =0. I believe free will is as real as it can be. We are, of course, limited by many things. Laws of physics, society, religion (if you are religious), other people's own free wills and so on. But I believe our own free will is absolute to its own extent. I read a filosophy book some years ago that talked about this, the book was "Etica para Amador" from Fernando Zavater. It made an analogy with Troy's Hector and a thermite warrior (thermite warriors go attack invasors while the workers rebuild the hive, their deads are almost certain). It said Hector (who died protecting Troy from Aquiles) did a very worthy, honorable and brave deed, while the thermite warrior bug just did what it was programmed to do. This is because the bug is actually "biologically programmed" to do it's job (as far as we know) and humans aren't. Hector could have just as easily escaped, he could have chosen not to fight and live instead, so his actions were brave and honorable while the thermite's were just instinct and biologically predetermined. Another thing filosophers use to prove free will, which i find very interesting, is trials penalties and sentences. What they say is: if we humans didn't have free will, people couldn't be judged and sentenced because their actions were predetermined and no one can fight fate. Their argument is: They weren't forrced to commit a crime, they could've chosen not to commit it, therefore they are punished for making the wrong decition. Of course you could always say: "Well, if they are indeed predetermined to commit a crime, couldn't the cops and judges be predetermined to arrest them and judge them?". Of course you could! but I think this is a tricky way of thinking. Not long ago there was a post about this, pseudo-science or dangerous thoughts they called it, i think. Pseudo-science are tricky ways of thinking that are infalible in a way they can't be proved wrong. As Sean said, many religions use this ways of thinking by saying “If you observe Christianity to be untrue, then really you’re just being fooled by the Devil, and you must believe even more in Christianity in order to overcome the Devil.” I think it's the same with this. Someone might say: "If you believe in free will, it's just because you are predetermined to believe in free will, so you are really just a puppet either way!" With that said, another thing that makes me think free will is real is the struggle you sometimes make when making a decision or trying to do something. Now that I have explained why "because you it's your fate to struggle man!" would be a lame answer to this, I can explain what I think about this very briefly. I think if you were predetermined to do something it wouldn't be so hard to do some things. Asking someone out, for example, I think everyone has struggled with this one. It's really scary (for me at least =p) and I have to struggle with it, and really hard too! Until finally one part of me or the other wins.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

Jusseppe

Also, for the religious ones. I've heard a lot of "But if God is real, and He knows everything that's going to happen, then there's no way we have free will!". If God is real, and he is indeed omniscient and almighty and all that, then I think there would still be free will. As I don't think we are moved by any mysterious forces I think we could then compare God to a really good chess player (or a super computer).
Chess players can't see the future. Chess players just see the boarrd in front of them and they know how the pieces affect the game, then they can make their predictions based on that. No one forces the other player to make a move, but sometimes the best move is so obvious that you can guess with geat accurancy what it will be. I think it would be the same with life. If God was omniscient then he would know every possible variable, he would also know you perfectly and could accurately predict your actions, so you still have free will.
Also, for the religious ones. I've heard a lot of "But if God is real, and He knows everything that's going to happen, then there's no way we have free will!". If God is real, and he is indeed omniscient and almighty and all that, then I think there would still be free will. As I don't think we are moved by any mysterious forces I think we could then compare God to a really good chess player (or a super computer). Chess players can't see the future. Chess players just see the boarrd in front of them and they know how the pieces affect the game, then they can make their predictions based on that. No one forces the other player to make a move, but sometimes the best move is so obvious that you can guess with geat accurancy what it will be. I think it would be the same with life. If God was omniscient then he would know every possible variable, he would also know you perfectly and could accurately predict your actions, so you still have free will.

Posted 4 years, 10 months ago

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